As an Indian, I've observed that collectivism and subservience towards authority figures are taught as virtues; this obviously makes it quite easy for employers to extract unreasonable demands such as long working hours, transgressions of ethical limits, things that are "bad", but that generates benefits for the employer.
On the other hand, European and American societies generally focus on individualism and autonomy, which obviously causes a conflict when an Indian hiring manager sees anything other than complete deference to them as a threat, and proceeds to reject such candidates.
As a Non-Indian, I'm quite aware/familiar with this kind of culture you speak of within Indian culture in the workplace and, to be blunt, if I were applying for a role as say a high level product manager (my current gig) and there was a native-born/raised Indian person as the hiring manager, I would at the very least be very cautious about this risk.
But in this situation, given the power dynamic is in favour of the other party, does this make me "biased"?... Or just "careful"?
Remind me to never fly on a plane piloted by an Indian flight crew.
(Protip: If you can't stand up to your captain, your plane is going down.)
(Protip: If you can't stand up to your captain, your plane is going down.)
Not sure if you're joking, but this is actually cited as one of the reasons behind one crash.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_India_Express_Flight_134...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_of_culture_on_aviation_...
It is a very observable and simple fact, why spin it?
Are you sure it's not just money ? You can pay Indians on H1B less and keep them tied to you. At a place like Cognizant, you aren't trying to get the best talent. You want the cheapest talent that gets the job done.
Are you sure it's unconscious?
Say it's conscious (eg "I like my hires to be scrupulously polite and deferential") and that overlaps with a cultural norm - is that problematic?
How about "I like my employees to be extremely punctual". Or "I like my employees to be dressed smartly". Is correlation with any subset of people sufficient to be illegal? Should it be?
I've seen all this OUTSIDE of the US, in a non-Indian Asian country that had a high number of Indian software developers in a shared service centre.
It was very clear my communication style and values is drastically different.
It was a good opportunity, but one of the most frustrating encounters I’ve ever had. I’m glad the offer didn’t go anywhere.
As it happened, fate intervened, and wider organizational spasms caused the project to be mothballed. We had to give notice to the whole dev team, including the lead. Fortunately, this was a megacorp, and other projects swiftly moved in, and new work orders were drafted. This gave us an opportunity to approve the team sheet for the outsourced roles. The female tech lead was waved on through. The troglodytes were rejected. The reason was stated. We received a duly grovelling "this will never happen again" response from the account manager. They never worked for us again under my watch, but I believe they were simply rotated on to another client rather than receiving any material comeuppance.
So, they kind of got away with it - but also kind of didn't.
personal favorite was that someone from network support ran a script that changed ownership of all of the docker containers and associated configs, outputs, and logs to root. we had pretty clear proof in the logs that a Cog support tech did it, and basically had to escalate to the CTO and get him to threaten a lawsuit to get them to fix it.
Also watched caste bulling play out in real time in a cramped meeting room in the RDU Triangle, in NC. Wasn't clear what the strain was until later when a full-timer of Indian extraction explained it to me.
I have never seen such ratios in 20+ years of my career.
The experience with outsourced resources is significantly different.
I build a good rapport with one who talked me through the politics and power plays behind the scenes at their midsize outsourcing arm. Just very different social values to Western orgs. Incredibly hierarchical with no value given to autonomy or independence. Those who want to do well and try really hard frequently get their helmets dented by over zealous managers.
Also experienced - ex offshore very often have incredible cvs until you interview and there's no actual experience. Polling the above contact he mentioned that for some offshore orgs promotion is literally time in role, not competency based.
My experience, your mileage may vary, and I reiterate those I've worked with on-site have been awesome, generous, funny and very supportive people.
I don't fault the outsourcing companies it's nothing different than what occurs with American consulting outsourcing before offshoring: get the deal signed, get the responsibilities transferred, and milk the cow.
The anti nerd bias of american culture means that IT is less respected than even blue collar workers by management.
The higher salaries of IT are begrudgingly given. I predict over the next two decades they will collapse to what typical engineers are paid: as in it's more lucrative to be a plumber
Think of that what you will, but the list of incentives an Indian has to bother integrating into American society is rather short.
2. The Indians in top leadership positions you see in tech firms are rare exceptions. To some extent they also come from fairly well off families and communities in India, who have social capital. Can afford cram school fees for Ivy league exams, money and ability to take loans to study abroad etc.
3. Any body who once makes non-trivial money or sees non-trivial career success instantly realises, given how big India is. Given its politics, and overall spending on Education, R&D, and the rate of industrialisation. The only hope for a good life for their, or atleast at their children is to move to the west.
Basically people want to leave India, as fixing India is largely a long term, and also a nearly impossible project.
It brings me hope to see shark tank getting popular there. Not to say the hosts or the contestants have been as honest as they should be, but it shows a big shift in mindset since India's 80s/90s economic policies
Think about it, this could solve everything. There would no longer be exploitation on either side.
Not to defend the Indians or their paymasters, but the H1B isn't diversity based, and there are a lot of Indians who also speak English, so...
I'd wager it's a deliberate US state policy. It's because we indians are good immigrants - whether it be US, Europe or the middle-east, we tend to respect (even if we necessarily don't like) the local culture and laws and try to avoid trouble and be good citizens (often better than in our own country :). And the US is a country built by immigrants that needs people. That is why Indians today are one of the largest immigrant group in the US. Also, cheap labour. That's capitalism at work - why hire American when the whole world can be your HR pool?
Exactly. If India sided with America's enemies, those visas would go bye-bye. The money being made in the US, being sent back to India, probably represents a good chunk of GDP.
See Australia. George Bush gave them a sweetheart visa deal in return for their support in the middle east in the early 2000s post 9-11.
As an African so far I have worked and learnt a lot from a Brazilian-Japanese, Bulgarian, Portuguese, Dutch, Belgian, Israeli, Russian, English, Indian, Pakistani, German, Argentinian, and a Polish.
Some of which I have the pleasure to call friend.
Ultimately, blind meritocracy is the only option - but that is also extremely difficult to do. See the historic Chinese style civil service exams for how that can be implemented, and its pros/cons.
One major issue with blind meritocracy is it strongly favors those from families who can invest in their children - aka the rich. Though, there is a path for improvement for those with raw intelligence, unless the tests favor brute force memorization. Like most Chinese tests historically have.
Submitters: "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
I have worked at Cognizant for just over a year. Though we don't have this problem on my immediate team, it is something we talk about because it's obvious in other teams and as an overall culture at the company.
It doesn't seem like overt discrimination (from me and my coworkers limited perspectives). There's a couple factors
1. People hire who they know. About two thirds of the employees are of Indian descent. So on average they hire their friends and former coworkers who are also Indian.
2. Leadership requires the offshore teams to be on every project. This is to keep costs down and because the other lines of business besides their main and original one (staff augmentation) are relatively new.
3. A minority (but not a small one) of Indians really are just blatantly discriminatory.
Mine, too. Some of my least favorite coworkers have been from India as well. Mostly because almost all of my coworkers have been from India since about 1997.
Back to the topic:
I know a lot of 2nd, 3rd generation Indians who definitely do not fit the stereotypes.
What we're likely seeing is the effect of three things:
- Indian has a very community based dynamic that prioritizes group identity over individual identities, a number of folks have never experienced being outside their groups
- Newly arrived Individual are likely experiencing culture shock, it happens to most people. It's very much a fight or flight response. People either choose the tribe they know, or find a new one. The later is rare
- Most other ethnic groups we're hearing about took a few generations to get to white collar jobs, they already understood local norms, because these were their norms. We're seeing a lot of 1st generation Indians (and some other groups) start in white collar professions, and that will play out differently.
It's the nature of service that WITCH prefers to provide and puts people in position where it's hard to change it, and the executives who contract with WITCH.
just seems kind of bizarre to me, like deciding to only hire people from Florida for a team in California
You can see this in action on the eastside of Lake Washington, always fun to get glared at for being at the wrong block in Samamish, or the wrong (or sometimes right) condo building in Bellevue. Do not bring a dog! You will get solid stares, does not matter how said dog behaves or what local policy is.
Seattle notably legislated against the caste system persisting in the city, but from what I hear it still is a thing stateside. Most of the Indian community lives outside Seattle though.
But language is a problem and you will see people speaking the same Indian language group themselves together.
And I will say, they've shown me a great deal of hospitality
I see a lot of negative feelings in the comments here. If anyone is having negative feelings they should be directed to corporations who have artificially engineered this situation. The people involved are not to blame
You can blame the people as well. Some of them will have a preference for people from their own state and who speak the same language compared to a non Indian or even an India from a different part of India.
The US Tech Workers site seems to be full of reasons why it is necessary but it cannot be a US movement alone, all tech workers need to have solidarity so these companies can’t shift production to another country in the event of a strike.
My search for an organization solely focused on *tech workers* and protecting our trade was fruitless — is there any such organization?
If this all sounds interesting to you let’s talk, hn.droop582 @ passmail.net
From an accounting standpoint perhaps it makes sense, but from the view of the workers, and the community, it just seems wrong.
While I understand this particular case involves allegations of discrimination within U.S. offices, the larger trend seems unavoidable. As companies prioritize cost-efficiency, it may no longer make economic sense for citizens of HCOL countries, to seek employment with such firms. Similarly, these companies are likely incentivized to constantly try and minimize the number of high-cost employees—whether they are Indians on H1B visas or American citizens—on their payroll.
This raises a concern about whether the government should intervene to address this industry trend of outsourcing. However, if we look at what happened with manufacturing and China, one wonders if such intervention will ever come, or if the shift is already inevitable.
At the risk of sounding racist (though I'm Indian, so I guess I get some leeway here), there are likely more biases at play than it seems.
You’ll see South or North Indians from a particular state prefer hiring employees from the same state, who speak the same language, and who look like them. And it doesn’t stop there. Caste discrimination plays a role too, and it even has its own Wiki page: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caste_discrimination_in_the_Un.... See also:
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalit
[2] https://harpercollinsin.medium.com/how-does-anyone-know-what...
This kind of thing is so rampant in India that you hear about it all the time on Reddit.
So yeah, Cognizant has been found guilty against non-Indians but they probably do this to other Indians.
It’s the discrimination version of the world’s largest choose your own adventure book.
I wouldn't consider it racist to call out racism.
The end result is that you see a mention of "Bangalore" and you get immediate shivers because it doesn't matter how nice and good as a person the people you are forced to work with are, if the entire qualification you can discern is that they are statistically expected to speak english, and their work environment and supervisors enforce certain counter-productive behaviours. Which is honestly abusive to the poor person in Bangalore, because it's not like they can learn the skills this way either.
To the point that I once had security team in a company where specific area of security might involve "uncomfortable questions from government" in cases of failure (fortunately not defense industry) actually sponsor my efforts to bypass supposedly crucial firewall - because connectivity including said firewall were handled by TCS.
Paywall workaround: https://archive.is/PiMNU
Another non-paywall article on the same topic: https://insider.govtech.com/california/news/jury-finds-discr...
It's about the (previously) Indian outsourcing firm and H-1B body shop supplying contractors to SV companies. It's unrelated to the Indian manager only hiring Indians phenomenon which many people here are discussing; FWIW I believe it was quite widespread at least back when I was in the Valley, but this ruling doesn't address that in any way.
https://www.mercurynews.com/2024/10/07/h-1b-visa-company-sup... is the paywalled source.
That said, https://www.siliconvalley.com/2024/10/07/h-1b-visa-company-s... seems to be the exact same article (author, timestamp, and all) published by the same group (Bay Area News Group) but without a paywall. (Both siliconvalley.com and mercurynews.com are registered to MediaNews Group, which is the owner of Bay Area News Group as of 2006.)
Submitters: "Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter." - https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
This comment section has gone to the gutter. Please flag this thread. This isn't even that significant of a news - we can come back to this when the court actually hands a ruling.
If you see a post that ought to have been moderated but hasn't been, the likeliest explanation is that we didn't see it. You can help by flagging it or emailing us.
https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
Best team I worked with was very diverse and they actively worked to help each other get promoted and protect each other.
On a positive note I got replaced by a guy in India. Then after a year of them clambering over each other’s corpses for promotion and destroying the org from the inside, I got hired back on contract to unfuck the mess at 4x my previous salaried rate.
Nothing against India or Indians but the reason outsourcing fails is no one wants to be an outsourced workforce so they go for promotion first to get a better job. And I don’t blame them.
I am curious, was this due to them speaking in a different language in actual professional meetings at Intel? I have often heard these reports, but in a social context.
I have never personally observed this in professional settings; but am curious to hear more so I can watch out for it if/when I do encounter it. It's odd because I would struggle to hold a professional conversation in any of the Indian languages that I speak (I have no idea how to say something like "thermal characteristics" or "power dissipation" in them); and would likely keep lapsing into English.
Another aspect is that I have found that they are quite hierarchical, probably a cultural trait. So how much they stick to English also depends on how senior the "non-Indian(s)" are compared to them. If you are their senior they are very nice.
This happened frequently at a WITCH I worked at out of college. The meeting would be in English then have segments change in the middle as certain speakers switched languages. Luckily, I often had a coworker stand up for me to mention to use English although I did miss many conversations.
Indians were actively discriminating against other Indians if they weren't born into the "highest" caste of hinduism (the few percent only allowed to learn to read and write), or avoiding the "lowest caste" of hinduism (way over 90 percent).
This caste system discrimination in tech, is also used to discriminate against other minorities who are not Indian, originating from the Indian subcontinent.
Trapped in Silicon Valley's Hidden Caste System https://www.wired.com/story/trapped-in-silicon-valleys-hidde...
Insight: Caste in California: Tech giants confront ancient Indian hierarchy https://www.reuters.com/business/sustainable-business/caste-...
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/asian-america/big-techs-big-pro...
More: https://www.google.com/search?q=silicon+valley+caste+system
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-human-rights-...
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/caste-discri...
https://www.trtworld.com/americas/toronto-school-board-recog...
Previously saw it at a lesser degree to older unicorns and places like Oracle, IBM, etc.
Although it’s normalised in the latter ones.
The problem is that every Fortune 500’s internal systems are hooked up to it.
That said, there's frequently islands of Indian and "the other" developers, in part that'll be cultural, but in part it's down to simply having a different job, expertise, department, etc.
If I posted a comment complaining about how black Americans are criminals, I think I’d rightfully be called out for oversimplifying in a hurtful way. What am I missing here?
-> Getting an assignment in the US is viewed as a reward for employees who work in the company for 5+ years.
-> H1B visa employess are given a 50% minimum discount to market rate. cause lol what are you gonna do . Quit and go back in the Queue for H1B.
-> nepotism / favoritism self explanatory.
-> Are more willing to work 40+ hours a week. Less likely to take vacations.
These are the observations of myself and members of my family who are from India.
H1B does suppress wages as employees don’t care how much they are paid. They only care that they stay on H1 so they get their green cards.
However, one they get their green card they feel the same that H1B’s suppress wages…lol…
Indian product owner taking mostly to Indian peer developers, bypassing normal communication channels. Indians being friendly with each other and stone cold with the rest.
Indians bringing Indian jokes to the table, with no outsider hoping to understand these. Indians bonding to go to Indian restaurants during lunch break, so now most of the colleagues follow suit, how to stop it all?
All these culture things (except for the first regarding PO which is spit-in-the-face level of unprofessionalism) add up, and then you find yourself in a corporation described in other messages of this thread.
I had to offboard from multiple projects throughout my career because development was hijacked by Indian cronyism.
Are you seriously asking how to "fight back" on Indians going to restaurants and joking with each other?
As an Indian in a flyover state who has been routinely excluded from golfing events, and had my dietary needs totally ignored while organizing things like steakhouse lunches, this is sort of darkly funny to read.
There massive difference is WHERE the discrimination is taking place. Most would not move to India or any other place and impose their culture and exclude locals in a fair and just world. I'm not saying it doesn't take place, and yes colonialism happened and was far worse, but we're talking about what SHOULD be.
As someone who has experienced this, I encourage you to draw on that experience and have empathy, even if that experience is expressed in ways that don't immediately resonate with you. You have more in common with the commenter you're replying to than you appreciate.
Neither of you should experience that. Your experience does not negate his. Nor his yours.
I'm hopeful that some light will be shed on how ridiculously dystopian it is to force D.I.E. mandates with posters like "United Colours of Benetton" as if "All Men/Women/Etc Are Created In Test Tubes Equivalent And Interchangeable" and we Voters of American Progressive Enlightenment must lobby to crush out every aspect of culture that suggests otherwise.
https://youtu.be/vvDYuj1Bs6Y?si=sodV00r3eefBoZ79 Harrison Bergeron for ya
So it goes. Namaste.
(A group of people casually getting together is totally different to someone's work environment where they have to attend to bring a paycheck home - I'm talking exclusively about professional/work environments)
Yes? Or is it just a problem when white people choose to associate with one another at work?
A better question would be how to prevent people from excluding each other based on group membership.
it is interesting to observe how people react to being in such a position when they are in a foreign work culture in their own soil. neither parties are completely at the right, but the fact that it is completely fine in one side but unacceptable for the other is so fascinating to me.
What makes me uncomfortable is that this inclusivity is increasingly being taken for granted to the point where not having it starts conversations about how to "fight back".
Even though it's not my preference I don't think there is anything wrong with Indians cracking jokes in a non-English language, or going to a restaurant by themselves. You will find that Americans will mysteriously be far more tolerant of, say, a group of French people talking among themselves in French; and going to a French restaurant as a group.
I'd always been around people from all sorts of places, and many of the schools I went to would intentionally keep kids of similar origins apart to force them to mingle with others, so I grew up to prefer being around people from different places over just sticking with other Indians. I've had several experiences of running into people who seem to take pride in being the way you describe. My interpretation has been that they have a chip on their shoulder about not being "westerners" and view anyone who is better integrated as being some sort of traitor.
For now, I've only had to experience it in school and university. It's been awful every time. Yours is also a sentiment many people have expressed to me about other Indians once they've opened up to me and realized I won't care if they say something that could be racist.
Vote with your feet, if you don't like it?
Don’t threaten me with a good time
Now I want to hear an Indian joke.
A naan sequitur.
you said it yourself, the first one was unprofessional and should be avoided and may be cause for action. The other things, learn to live as the minority in a group and accept what the group values.
I mean maybe your colleagues follow suit about eating Indian food because Indian food is delicious? "Hey you guys know a good Indian food place around here - that's great!" would be my response.
Usually, the sanest recourse in these kinds of situations is to cut your losses and vote with your feet.
I mean, if you're going out with a group, it's usually majority vote anyway
And frankly they have good food
The issue highlighted here is that it seems at times that there are exceptions that people are afraid to call out and criticise, especially at lower levels.
Pretty sure white people aren't mass immigrating to India and doing this there.
LMAO! What are white restaurants?
And if you think Casteism is a bitch, Pakistani/Indian (or Indian Hindu vs Indian Muslim) is a bitch and a half. Just try to apply for a visa for India and see how many times they ask if you or any of your relatives are from Pakistan to get a taste.
Edit: ooh, downvotes away. Hah! No better way to tell when you hit a nerve than the torches come out.
>How do these managers know your country of origin?
The irony.
If you've never felt it, that just means you're from the countries that look down on other european countries :)
And it's been used in the US by Indians who practice caste-centric Hinduism who feel they are at a certain step of the caste ladder to those below them, or non-Hindus.
> https://arstechnica.com/science/2016/01/the-caste-system-has...
A hypothetical claim that all Indians are racist would clearly be absurd, but it’s hardly surprising to find a group of Indians practicing something that is openly part of their native culture.
Nevermind that "race" as a concept did not exist in the modern sense in Western cultures prior to colonization despite the exposure to other peoples with other skin tones from other parts of the world. Nevermind that cooperation and aiding the weak and forming alliances has been the only thing keeping us alive as naked, defenseless animals that need to sustain our young for years before they can carry their weight, feed themselves, let alone fend for themselves.
I just worked for a startup with many Indians (including the founder). It was all fine, and I liked my coworkers. I can understand that other people had different experiences: companies and people differ.
For context, everything was remote, and I worked from Singapore. I'm not India, but I do like to prepone my meetings.
The contracting companies probably single-handed build and maintain lots of racist stereotypes against indians, because the level of service those companies offer is always unmitigated failure, even internally. I once accidentally stumbled into working on a contract through WiPro myself, and it was a horrific experience. The way I see it, the line workers that end up the target of ire and stereotypes are just victims of actions taken way above them.
The people who can, apparently avoid working for them, or use every opportunity to escape. Those who can't yet but have ambition for more, apparently use every opportunity to escape - whether it is by jumping ship on H1B, or otherwise. Those currently stuck are in no way encouraged to do a good job, and for obvious cost cutting you get people who were in no way prepared to do the job.
Occasionally a client will get angry enough and they will pull an actually skilled person to smooth the ruffled feathers, someone they usually trot for dog&pony show when winning the contract as example of who is supposed to work on it.
But the "important" people, upper management who decide to contract with WITCH, and the upper management of WITCH who run such strategy, they all profit. The managers and/or C-level who outsource sight-unseen with no quality enforcement disappear with their rewards before institutional inertia stops papering over their decisions. The WITCH companies pocket huge amounts of money while paying pittance to line workers and providing worse than zero service.
A few jobs ago, when I was working for a third-tier legacy bank, my manager joked that all the outsourcing they were doing was actually really useful and pragmatic, because it means they can fail their IT projects cheaper. (The implication being that their projects were by and large inevitably doomed anyway.)
There isn't, though. There's a lot of negativity about _H1B_s in the comments here, but you conflate that with Indian.
[1] https://www.kellogg.northwestern.edu/faculty/sapienza/htm/cu...
From https://www.cleanenergywire.org/news/industry-electricity-pr...
> Economist and economy ministry advisor Jens Südekum called the analysis’s results “astonishing.” Commenting on social media platform X, Südekum pointed out that industry prices had fallen “significantly” and that price indicators continued to point downwards. The trend would be similar for private households, albeit at a slower pace, he argued. Once current contracts expire, Südekum said lower prices should become widespread in new ones. “Overall, the BDEW figures don’t chime with current mood in debates, which is that everything is going down the drain due to high energy prices,” he argued.
An anecdotal evidence, a large semiconductor in Germany with fabs is moving to "best" cost countries and the message provided is clear by the management. Positions are moved to "best" cost countries and new offices in these locations are being opened. Support jobs i.e. back office, accounting etc are in the process first. R&D is next and many engineers have taken the hint. The biggest customers for them is automotive as is usually the case for most of the German companies. If automotive market falls then they are in serious trouble. Make what you want out of this.
