I especially enjoy Numbers and the way you can arrange multiple tables on a page. It's a different paradigm coming from Google Sheets or Excel and takes some getting used to, but to me it now makes more sense.
Of course, if I need something "done right", I'll drop down to Affinity, LaTeX, or InDesign. But I rarely have these needs nowadays.
A similar argument could be made for going all in on Google Docs/Sheets/Slides, but I feel queasy knowing that all of my data is in a free Google account, after reading some of the stories here about reaching Google support if something goes sideways.
TeXshop on the Mac is however rather nice.
I needed "true" or "false" in certain cells. When typing in a cell, sometimes it would capitalize it to TRUE and you would need to type "'true" to avoid that; and sometimes it randomly would accept typing "true". I simply couldn't figure out which would happen at any time.
The whole program is riddled with things like that.
It can make some very pretty sheets but don't count on it if you have needs for something like pivot tables (which it doesn't have natively).
I think Apple is fucking everyone with those apps. They are not good enough for serious work but decent enough that people will use them; all to get a built-in lock in because of course it only runs on Macs...
I would argue it is not just good enough but better than Office for normal consumers. For 99% of my usage and SMEs, Page is insanely better at layout. Numbers are much better for simple chat, formulas and comparison. Keynote.... well i haven't touched powerpoint for 20+ years so I dont know.
The only thing Office is better is when you need slightly complex formulas in Excel or some enterprise that has been using Excel for so long you need to use it to guarantee absolute 100% compatibility. For business Excel usage is still king. And will continue to be for at least another 10 - 15 years if not more.
Pages and Keynote are fine but I can't for the life of me figure out how to do anything with Numbers. It looks beautiful and I want to like it but as you say it's (too) different from Excel, at least for me.
Examples of good alternatives
- Pixelmator > Photoshop
- Davinci Resolve > Premiere
- Reaper > Audition
I have no interest in renting my tools.
I suppose it always was.
https://go.microsoft.com/fwlink/p/?LinkID=2113574&CLCID=0x10...
I was unable to figure out how to download/purchase a version of Office from MSFT that would run under macOS 12[1]. But in my searching, I ended up here:
https://github.com/alsyundawy/Microsoft-Office-For-MacOS
So she's now running a volume-licensed version of Office 2019. MSFT seems to tolerate not necessarily legitimate volume licensing I guess as these have been floating around the internet forever.
[1] e.g. https://answers.microsoft.com/en-us/msoffice/forum/all/what-...
I have a very vague memory that is was $200 in the 2000s, so if accurate the price has gone down.
It has a subscription option, but also a “buy outright” option, and it’s often on sale for half price for the permanent license, ends up costing around ~$200 and it works on Windows, Mac, and Linux.
I think it’s very good, though I am not a professional video editor by trade.
Nothing against GIMP, I just found it too hard to learn coming from photoshop.
I'm looking for a simple editor that can do color adjustments, crop/resize images, and add text.
Those are all pretty simple in GIMP though? I'm not doubting that they are different from Photoshop but how long could it take to learn the GIMP way?
I'm not going to link to a specific one implying I'm recommending it, but a web search will show multiple.
One important gimp note is if you don't have 3.0+ already, get it. It finally has non-destructive editing, which is the main reason I had to keep using ps for for a long time.
I'd be interested in a similar basic tool as paint for mac and Linux (and possibly also for windows, if MS crappifies Paint, after it has tried to kill it earlier)
Given we're on HN news, I thought it was implied that I was referring mostly to the exhaustion at being faced with a perpetually increasing amount of rent-seeking in the form of SaaS.
Eventually that guy/girl in Nebraska is going to look elsewhere.
While I appreciate the sentiment, the world where you could use the same software for many years without updates is gone. These days developers have to invest significant time and effort into making sure the software just runs on the constantly updated operating systems and platforms — which costs money on an ongoing basis. Expecting your software to be updated regularly without paying regularly makes no sense.
So either you intend to run that exact binary that you downloaded (because that is the tool you bought), or the ongoing costs need to be covered somehow. Some companies do it through subscriptions and some play a game of "no, you don't have to update, but here is this new shiny (more bloated, too) version that we produce every 2 years, you can get it for $50 and OWN IT FOREVER (well, until the next shiny comes along in 2 years time". But it's a game, and the drawback is that there is incentive for bloating software instead of just maintaining it and fixing bugs.
Of course CASIO is not connected to the internet, it won't allow me to steer it with my fancy phone app. So maybe, just maybe, connecting everything to the internet is a simple mistake?
I bought my Lightroom when it was possible and am using with my camera. Once I buy a new camera, it won't be supported in lightroom. And I won't be able to upgrade it because now they moved to the subscription model. And I make photos every 5 months let's say... And lightroom them even less often
i’ve used repear for years on and off without paying anything. new updates come out all the time. fixes, new features etc. (every time i open Reaper I hang my head in shame for not having bought a license).
repear isn’t a profit optimised entity. i gather it is software created and maintained primarily for people to use. licenses cover costs.
adobe/microsoft are profit optimised entities. people using the software is secondary to them making money off it. subscriptions are there to make them profit, not to cover their costs.
Don't forget that VMs exists.
I don't mind paying the upgrade price when I need the newer version, but that should be an informed decision. These day, subscriptions are actual gatekeepers to features where when you cancel it, you lose access to the software "pro" features.
If I buy a physical lock that's found to be easily opened with a toothpick once it's in the mass market, I'd expect a recall and it to be fixed. With software, it's even easier to deploy a fix.
There's an expectation that purchased software is usable. A server that's connected to the internet that can be compromised easily is no longer usable. Firms selling software applications have an obligation to provide security updates for the life of the product.
What’s different today?
I don't know many people left who pay for their OS these days.
It's easy to keep your machines secured even if they are using a decades old OS. Businesses are still depending on a lot of old software and hardware, because it gets the job done with great efficiency.
My bet is that none of the commenters in this thread (full of mentions of sustainable development) actually run a full-time software business and make a living on it. I do. Which is why I understand why subscriptions make sense.
The US has threatened war at least against Canada, Europe, Panama and China, while clearly eyeing an alliance with Russia, which would in turn threaten many countries bordering Russia. That's a pretty large number of users who don't feel safe using US products anymore.
https://www.newsweek.com/kentucky-bourbon-boss-bemoans-canad...
https://www.bbc.com/news/articles/cn7vjlv7pzdo
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory/danish-viking-bloo...
LibreOffice is honestly fine nowadays. I feel like Excel is probably a bit better than Calc, but Calc is still capable enough for most tasks.
The documents look decent enough, it’s easy to use, it’s reasonably fast, and you can’t really beat the price.
I have to admit that a reason that I haven’t touched it much is pretty silly: I like the icons for OpenOffice better. LibreOffice’s icons look too…childish? Hard to explain, and obviously subjective, but I wish I could get import OpenOffices icons into LibreOffice.
I haven't tried it, but I think it's quite possible: https://documentation.libreoffice.org/assets/Uploads/Documen...
I might compile OpenOffice and see how well that stacks up nowadays.
As it stands, the compromise that I do is write Markdown and render it to LaTeX or XeLaTeX with Pandoc. Not claiming it's the "best" or anything, but the documents look nice to me and Markdown is easy to write.
Specific to LibreOffice - as an academic I've had to create a couple presentations in ppt format recently. It sucks, but it was a requirement of the conference. Anyway - LO Impress still has many of the annoyances of PowerPoint, but head to head it's actually an objectively better, faster program than PowerPoint.
For 90% of documents, software like Word was a mistake and you should be using google docs level of detail or markdown or so. And for the rest you want publishing software, not Word :(.
99% of the time people want bullet points, headers, maybe a table or two. Using a word processor is very overkill and actually makes the simple stuff more arduous.
Markdown is the best too because:
1. Sending as plaintext is so convenient and it looks pretty decent
2. Most software (gitlab, jira, etc) accept markdown input so you can just copy-paste
Are you... creating and printing documents? Why? I haven't had a real need for a word processor since email was invented.
- preparing various letters, reports, audits, notices, terms/contracts etc. by modifying or using very specific templates and Office tools are very well entrenched for fixed templates
- Financial reports, analysis on excel(yes, most professionals are trained and feel comfortable there, same as how we feel good in terminal/console), building specific forms with constraints and checks, data sharing, special report of field data collection and audits, technical specifications/spec-sheets, quick complex calculations, think MS Excel as best candidate which everyone and there pet dog learned since elementary school
- Presentation, brochures, special fliers, quick reports, course reference/speech deck, lecture slides, product marketing/sales docs are mostly being handled by PowerPoint
Of course, we have numerous best-alternatives which can all replace these or “why not google docs”, but these people are trained on these specific ms office tools since dawn of civilization when people stopped cave painting and stone tablet based accounting in favor of computers. While we tech folks love to pickup and learn new tools, the other 99.99999% people see diminishing return adapting new tools. And lets be real, who wants to mess with the official template in some new tool that purchasing and procurement will not ever care about and scold the applicant back into the MS Office tools that already comes pre installed and licensed from their IT vendor?
I usually use Google docs for stuff like language learning for convenience and libreoffice for financial spreadsheets, work related stuff, and anything I don't want to be snooped by Google systems.
Even longer. I remember in college in the '90s we would pack two things away over the summer to make sure the next year would go well: 1/4 oz weed because it took so long for the market to pick back up in the fall, and a floppy disc holding Word 5.1 since Word 6.0 for the Mac was such garbage.
I am far from a heavy WP/Spreadsheet user, usually Emacs for me, but at work I need to mess with spreadsheets. I use LibreOffice for that and to me there is no difference.
It's also worrying that The Apache Foundation continues to promote and distribute OpenOffice despite unfixed security issues and zero updates to the software. So many people in the FOSS world have called on them to finally retire it, put it in the Attic and keep up a good reputation for FOSS - but they won't do it. It still gets hundreds of thousands of downloads despite being unfixed.
It's irresponsible of The ASF IMO.
https://www.openoffice.org/press/2.0/press_release.html (2005-10-20)
https://news.microsoft.com/2005/11/21/qa-microsoft-co-sponso... (2005-11-21)
By choosing OpenOffice, you should be aware that you are at an increased risk for attacks. One of the consistent problems with OpenOffice over the past years has been that they have often not published security fixes for many months, sometimes critical ones, for vulnerabilities that were publicly known.
(Due to the shared codebase, obviously, many security issues affect both LO/OO, yet, with the difference that LO usually fixes them in a timely manner.)
I have gnumeric documents with hundreds of plots containing fits etc that I view in 4k without any lag or delays whatsoever. The plotting options can also be made suitable for publication much more easily. All the important functions are there.
My main complaint about spreadsheets in general is the fitting options are still in the stone age compared with software like ROOT using minuit, where you can easily do a proper chi squared minimization with arbitrary functions where error bars of all points are correctly used. However, it seems only the sciences use such features as apparently there is no demand from the business world (or other MS customers) for spreadsheet tools supporting thought or analysis beyond a 5th grade level.
Microsoft has had decades and millions of dollars to make excel usable, and should be embarrassed about how their flagship productivity software is rightfully seen as unfit for purpose by people doing rigorous work. Seeing nontrivial information in a scientific talk rendered in the telltale excel style is visual shorthand for "the real analysis hasn't been done yet" or "I don't know what I'm doing and won't be able to answer questions about uncertainties."
I realy feel the PM's at Microsoft consider you a dinosaur if your primary "productivity" device is not your phone.
Been using LibreOffice Write ever since, which helpfully has pretty much the 2003 UI. The only thing I think it could use is that nifty Jetbrains "search anywhere" feature.
Why is there a limit of nine levels of headings in Word? Why does it feel less usable on my i9 with 32GB of RAM once you hit 200+ pages? Why is the "collaborative mode" still way, way, way behind Google Docs functionality circa 2012? I feel like the core functionality has stagnated since Office 2003.
Strategies taking advantage of the ignorance of users (or voters) are faltering in the age of user-generated content. You can't sell an operating system without a document editor without running the risk of people finding the free one that is nearly as good (or in the case of Wordpad, is far better.)
MS won't like what happens in offices 10 years from now if they let students use Libreoffice for their schoolwork instead of Wordpad (eventually replaced with Word.) They'd better be working hard to get "student" copies of Office into kids' hands, even if they have to pay them to take it.
They have completely lost this battle. Google Docs was the standard thru nearly my entire K12 and university education.
Now when you click a .docx on a fresh Windows install, you get a generic “what app would you like to open this with?” pop-up.*
This leads the user to google free ways to view Word documents, leading to LibreOffice.
* Site note: I’m very surprised Microsoft doesn’t use this as an opportunity to sell you Office.
LibreOffice I want to like but I've tripped over many weird bugs and things which have been floating around in their Bugzilla since the dawn of time.
If I have an academic interest, I'll just use TeXlive and LaTeX Workship inside VScode.
If I type “=“ into D2 then left arrow to C2 then type “*” I would expect when I next press up arrow it to bring me to D1. But in Calc it brings me to C1. In other words it doesn’t reset to the starting cell after each operation.
I guess I can change it somehow, but that’s been enough of an annoyance that I haven’t switched wholly for on google sheets, though I’d like to.
I understand this is a shifting requirement but I just don't work in an environment where I can force everyone to switch.
Currently I find OnlyOffice to be much better than LibreOffice.
Does HN know of any others?
There is WPS from China with similar issues.
So your options are limited. LibreOffice sucks ass with any serious document. On Windows GUI bugs are annoying as hell. KDE's Calligra is slowly rotting.
I made the exact search as you did and decided to get a perpetual MS Office license. No other way around unfortunately.
I've never found it to work, and the UX looks like it was designed at IBM in 1985.
Have to send PDFs so it works.
I do not have to do collaborative editing like tracking but I suppose that works too.
Calc is.. slowly improving but it works.
The things that docs don't have are things like templated designs, and other typesetting features that a professional document creator would want to use. It also isn't completely compatible with office document formats (some formatting and alignments are wrong). I would imagine similar with spreadsheets.
Having multiple people working literally at the same time is an interesting way to work, though not something I want to repeat/rely on often.
They are really stretching what you should be doing with a spreadsheet and they are fully collaborative/multi-user. At some point it got really old to wait fifteen minutes for the sheets to recalculate.
https://dev.blog.documentfoundation.org/2023/11/25/libreoffi...
