We know from the functional busy beaver [1] that Graham behaviour can come surprisingly early; a 49-bit lambda term suffices. There are only 77519927606 closed lambda terms of at most that size [2], compared to 4^12*23836540=399910780272640 unique 6-state Turing Machines [3].
With the achievement of pentation in only 6 states, several people now believe that 7 states should suffice to surpass Graham's. I would still find that rather surprising. A few days ago, I made a large bet with one of them on whether we would see proof of BB(7)>Graham's within the next 10 years.
What do people here think?
BB has to grow faster than any computable sequence. What exactly that means concretely for BB(7) is... nothing other than handwaving... but it sort of means it needs to walk up the "operator strength" ladder very quickly... it eventually needs to grow faster than any computable operator we define (including, for example, up-arrow^n, and up-arrow^f(n) for any computable f).
My gut feeling is that the growth between 47 million and 2^^2^^2^^9 is qualitatively larger than the growth between 2^^2^^2^^9 and graham's number in terms of how strong the operator we need is (with gramah's number being g_64 and g here being roughly one step "above" up_arrow^n). So probably we should have BB(7)>Graham's number.
Your proof rests primarily on this assertion:
> BB has to grow faster than any computable sequence.
This is almost true! BB(n) has to grow faster than any computable sequence _defined by an n-state Turing machine_. That last part is really important. (Note that my restatement is probably incorrect too, it is just correct enough to point out the important flaw I saw in your statement). This means that up-arrow^f(n) _can_ be larger than BB(n) — up-arrow^f(n) is not restricted by a Turing machine at all. As an easy example, consider f(n) = BB(n)^2.
You may still be right about BB(7) being bigger than Graham’s number, even if your proof is not bulletproof
Any computable sequence S(n) must be computed by a specific finite program of fixed length.
Once n gets big enough, BB(n) will include the function S(2^n), and therefore will exceed that computable sequence.
Given computable sequences may exceed BB(n) for a finite number of terms. But eventually BB(n) will outgrow them, and will never look back.
I'm not sure I understand the distinction you're trying to make though, and I'm not sure it's right...
The argument that BB has to grow faster than any computable sequence is that if we have a computable f(n) where for all n f(n) > BB(n) then we can solve the halting problem by simulating turing machines of size n for f(n) steps and checking if they halt. Even if we can't prove f(n) > BB(n) the mere existence of this f would mean we could solve the halting problem (even though we couldn't prove we had done so).
I agree my "proof" (intuition really) rests on that assertion.
> As an easy example, consider f(n) = BB(n)^2.
This, like BB(n), isn't computable?
Thus, any proof that BB(748) = N must either show that TM_ZF_INC halts within N steps or never halts. By Gödel's famous results, neither of those cases is possible if ZFC is assumed to be consistent.
BB(748) is by definition a finite number, and it has some value - we just don't know what it is. If an oracle told us the number, and we ran TM_ZFC_INC that many steps we would know for sure whether ZFC was consistent or not based on whether it terminated.
The execution of the turing machine can be encoded in ZFC, so it really is the value of BB(748) that is the magic ingredient. Somehow even knowledge of the value of this finite number is a more potent axiomatic system than any we've developed.
This already sounds like an inconsistent theory, but surprisingly isn’t: Godel’s second incompleteness theorem directly gives us that Con(ZFC) is independent, so there are models that validate both Con(ZFC) and ~Con(ZFC). The models that validate ~Con(ZFC) are very confused about what numbers are: from the models perspective, there is a number corresponding to a Godel code for the supposed proof of inconsistency, but from the external view this is a “nonstandard number”: it’s not not a finite numeral!
Getting back to BB(748): what does this look like in a model of ZFC + ~Con(ZFC)? We can prove that the machine internal to the model will find that astronomically large Godel code, so BB(748) will be a nonstandard number. In other words, you can tell if a 748 state machine will terminate in this model: you’ve just got to run it for a number of steps that’s larger than every finite numeral!
[1]: unless there’s some machine that with 748 that enumerates theorems of ZFC+Con(ZFC) but that’s a different discussion.
This doesn't sound right to me.
You can prove that ZFC is consistent. You could do it today, with or without the magic number, using a stronger axiom system. If an Oracle told you that BB(748) = 100 or whatever, that would constitute proof that ZFC is consistent.
But it wouldn't negate the fact that BB(748) is independent of ZFC, because you haven't proved within the axioms of ZFC that ZFC is consistent, which is what makes it independent.
> I think what's most unintuitive is that most (all?) "paradoxes" or "unknowables" in mathematics involve infinities. When limiting ourselves to finite whole numbers, paradoxes necessarily disappear.
I might be missing something, but all of these assertions deal with finite whole numbers, not infinity. Unless you count a Turing machine running forever an infinity, in which case, it seems counterintuitive to me that encoding a while loop that runs forever somehow makes paradoxes appear.
We already have more powerful systems, but what causes the inability to self-reason is exactly that power: only first order logic can prove its own consistency. Once you get powerful enough to model arithmetic, you can build statements with self-referential weirdness.
I don’t see it as a paradox, but as growth: a sufficiently rich system can pose questions which suggest a richer system — and thereby scaffold up the universe hierarchy.
Isn't it more accurate to say that any proof that BB(748) = N in ZFC must either show that TM_ZF_INC halts within N steps, or never halts?
Meaning, it's totally possible to prove that BB(748) = N, it just can't be done within the axioms of ZFC?
The 748/745/643 numbers are just examples of actual machines people have written, using that many states, that halt iff a proof of "false" is found.
At any rate, given the precise k, I believe your intuition is correct. I've heard this called 'proof by simulation' -- if you know a bound on BB(N), you can run a machine for that many steps and then you know if it will run forever. But this property is exactly the intuition for why it grows so fast, and why we will likely never definitively know anything beyond BB(5). BB(6) seems like it might be equivalent to the Collatz conjecture, for example.
I guess it's also hard when we have an arbitrary Turing machine and have to prove that what it's doing isn't equilavent to trying to prove an undecibable statement.
It's BB(n) that is incomputable (that is there's no algorithm that outputs the value of BB(n) for arbitrary n).
BB(748) is computable. It's, by definition, a number of ones written by some Turing machine with 748 states. That is this machine computes BB(748).
> It feels like a category error or something.
The number itself is just a literally unimaginably large number. Independence of ZFC comes in when we try to prove that this number is the number we seek. And to do that you need theory more powerful than ZFC to capture properties of a Turing machine with 748 states.
As soon as Gödel published his first incompleteness theorem, I would have thought the entire field of mathematics would have gone full throttle on trying to find more axioms. Instead, over the almost century since then, Gödel’s work has been treated more as an odd fact largely confined to niche foundational studies rather than any sort of mainstream program (I’m aware of Feferman, Friedman, etc., but my point is there is significantly less research in this area compared to most other topics in mathematics).
Statements that are independent of ZFC are a dime a dozen when doing foundations of mathematics, but they're not so common in many other areas of math. Harvey Friedman has done interesting work on finding "natural" statements that are independent of ZFC, but there's dispute about how natural they are. https://mathoverflow.net/questions/1924/what-are-some-reason...
In fact, it turns out that a huge amount of mathematics does not even require set theory, it is just a habit for mathematicians to work in set theory. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_mathematics.
> This ignores the fact that it is not so easy to find natural interesting statements that are independent of ZFC.
I’m not ignoring this fact—just observing that the sheer difficulty of the task seems to have encouraged mathematicians to pursue other areas of work beside foundational topics, which is a bit unfortunate in my opinion.
But why? Gödel's theorem does not depend on number of axioms but on them being recursively enumerable.
In fact, both Gödel and Turing worked on this problem quite a bit. Gödel thought we might be able to find some sort of “meta-principle” that could guide us toward discovering an ever increasing hierarchy of more powerful axioms, and Turing’s work on ordinal progressions followed exactly this line of thinking as well. Feferman’s completeness theorem even showed that all arithmetical truths could be discovered via an infinite process. (Now of course this process is not finitely axiomatizable, but one can certainly extract some useful finite axioms out of it — the strength of PA after all is equivalent to the recursive iteration up to ε_0 of ‘Q_{n+1} = Q_n + Q_n is consistent’ where Q_0 is Robinson arithmetic).
ZFC is way overpowered for that. https://mathoverflow.net/questions/39452/status-of-harvey-fr...
https://jdh.hamkins.org/the-universal-algorithm-a-new-simple...
Suppose model A proves BB(748) = X and model B proves BB(748) = Y > X. But presumably the models can interpret running all size 748 Turing machines for Y steps. Either one of the machines halts at step Y (forming a proof within A that BB(748) >= Y contradicting the assumed proof within A that BB(748) = X < Y) or none of the machines halts at step Y (forming a proof within B that BB(748) != Y contradicting the assumed proof within B that BB(748) = Y).
I'm guessing the only way this could ever work would be some kind of nastiness like X and Y aren't nailed down integers, so you can't tell if you've reached them or not, and somehow also there's a proof they aren't equal.
Most of these 'uncomputable' problems are uncomputable in the sense of the halting problem: you can write down an algorithm that should compute them, but it might never halt. That's the sense in which BB(x) is uncomputable: you won't know if you're done ever, because you can't distinguish a machine that never halts from one that just hasn't halted yet (since it has an infinite number of states, you can't just wait for a loop).
So presumably the independence of a number from ZFC is like that also: you can't prove it's the value of BB(745) because you won't know if you've proved it; the only way to prove it is essentially to run those Turing machines until they stop and you'll never know if you're done.
I'm guessing that for the very small Turing machines there is not enough structure possible to encode whatever infinitely complex states end up being impossible to deduce halting from, so they end up being Collatz-like and then you can go prove things about them using math. As you add states the possible iteration steps go wild and eventually do stuff that is beyond ZFC to analyze.
So the finite value 745 isn't really where the infinity/uncomputability comes from-it comes from the infinite tape that can produce arbitrarily complex functions. (I wonder if over a certain number of states it becomes possible to encoding a larger Turing machine in the tape somehow, causing a sort of divergence to infinite complexity?)
Two lenses for trying to understand this are potentially Chastain's limits on output of a lisp program being more complex than the program itself [1] or Markov's proof that you can't classify manifolds in d>= 4.
If you try the latter and need/want to figure out how the Russian school is so different this is helpful [2]
IMHO the former gives an intuition why, and the latter explains why IMHO.
In ZFC, C actually ends up implying PEM, which is why using constructionism as a form of reverse math helped it click for me .
This is because in the presence of excluded middle, every sequentially complete metric space is a complete space, and we tend to care about useful things, but for me just how huge the search space grows was hidden due to the typical (and useful) a priori assumption of PEM.
If you have a (in my view) dislike for the constrictive approach or don't want/have to invest in learning an obscure school of it, This recent paper[3] on the limits for finding a quantum theory of everything is another lens.
Yet another path is through Type 2 TMs and the Borel hierarchy, where while you can have a uncomputable number on the input tape you algorithms themselves cannot use them, while you can produce uncomputable numbers by randomly selecting and/or changing an infinite sequence.
Really it is the difference between expressability and algorithms working within what you can express.
Hopefully someone else can provide more accessible resources. I think a partial understanding of the limits of algorithms and computation will become more important in this new era.
[1] https://arxiv.org/abs/chao-dyn/9407003 [2] https://arxiv.org/abs/1804.05495 [3] https://arxiv.org/abs/2505.11773
Like, a TOE is not expected to decide all statements expressible in the theory, only to predict particular future states from past states, with as much specificity as such past states actually determine the future states. It should not be expected to answer “given a physical setup where a Turing machine has been built, is there a time at which it halts?” but rather to answer “after N seconds, what state is the machine (as part of the physical system) in?” (for any particular choice of N).
Whether a particular statement expressed in the language of the theory is provable in the theory, is not a claim about the finite-time behavior of a physical system, unless your model of physics involves like, oracle machines or something like that.
Edit: it later says: “ Chaitin’s theorem states that there exists a constant K_{ℱ_{QG}} , determined by the axioms of ℱ_{QG} , such that no statement S with Kolmogorov complexity K(S) > K_{ℱ_{QG}} can be proven within ℱ_{QG} .”
But this, unless I’m badly misinterpreting it, seems very wrong? Most formal systems of interest have infinitely many distinct theorems. Given an infinite set of strings, there is no finite universal upper bound on the Kolmogorov complexity of the strings in that set.
Maybe this was just a typo or something?
They do then mention something about the Bekenstein bound, which I haven’t considered carefully yet but seems somewhat more promising than the parts of the article that preceded it.
But for every natural number n there is a trivial Turing machine that just prints n and then halts.
Related: It's incorrect to claim that each machine either halts or doesn't halt. To know that that dichotomy holds would require having a halting problem algorithm.
It’s still true though. I’m not wrong.
BB(748) is very similar, in that I'd call it a 'definition' independent of ZF rather than a 'number' independent of ZF.
* ZFC is a set of axioms. A "model" is a structure that respects the axioms.
* By Godel, we know that ZFC proves a statement if and only if the statement is true in all models of ZFC.
* Therefore, the statement "BB(748) is independent of ZFC" is the same as the statement "There are two different models of ZFC where BB(748) are two different numbers.
* We can take one of these to be the "standard model"[1] that we all think of when we picture a Turing Machine. However, the other would be a strange "non-standard" model that includes finite "natural numbers" that are not in the set {0,1,2,3,...} and it includes Turing Machines that halt in "finite" time that we would not say halt at all in the standard model.
* So BB(748) is indeed a number as far as the standard model is concerned, the problem only comes from non-standard models.
TL;DR this is more about the fact that ZFC axioms allow weird models of Turing Machines that don't match how we think Turing Machines usually work.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-standard_model_of_arithmet...
But there is also a function g that you cannot prove whether g() = n.
Important distinction.
This means that somebody could claim that the value of BB(748) = n but you cannot be sure if they are correct (but you might be able to show they are wrong).
If you are refering to the idea that nothing that can't exist in the real universe "really exists", then the "Busy Beaver" portion of that idea is extraneous, as 100% of integers can't exist in the real universe, and therefore, 100% of integers are equally just "mathematical concepts". That one of them is identified by BB(748) isn't a particularly important aspect. But certainly, a very specific number is identified by that designation, though nothing in this universe is going to know what it is in any meaningful sense.
Many other numbers and functions are computable, including e, pi, 10^100, etc- these are fundamentally different than BB.
So in what sense is it actually a number? There is no algorithm which can resolve questions such as BB(748) < x given x. That doesn't seem like a number to me!
In fact, for some x, such questions will depend on the consistency of ZFC. All normal math we do is expressible in ZFC, but by incompleteness, ZFC cannot prove it's own consistency or is inconsistent. So, we cannot really ever know the value, we can only ever find lower bounds. Does this seem like a number to you? It's not in the English sense and neither is it in what I would consider a reasonable definition of numbers you actually encounter, the computable numbers. Real numbers are in fact, not very real at all.
Every sentence ever spoken and every view ever looked at is also a number. It's not a freaky thing about "things like" busy beaver, it's a freaky thing about the concept of information.
But even though everything is a number, saying "it's crazy that a number can be X" is usually someone making a mistake, using the everyday concept of numbers in their head. If you replace "a number" with "some text and code and data", people wouldn't say it's surprising that "some text and code and data" can be unprovable in ZFC.
Technically a photograph is a number, but primarily it's something else. BB(748) is the same, technically a number but primarily it's a series of detailed computer calculations.
We just can't prove which number it is, we don't know which of the machines halt.
With this definition, we can say that "ZFC is inconsistent" is semidecidible: you run a program that searches for a contradiction.
The question BB(748) =/= 1000 is similarly semidecidable. You can run a program that will rule out 1000 if it is not BB(748).
So they are in the same "category", at least regarding their undecidability.
Also, if you turn "ZFC is consistent" into a number: {1 if ZFC is consistent; 0 if ZFC is inconsistent}, you will see, that BB(748) is not very much different, both are defined (well, equivalently) using the halting of Turing machines, or, the result of an infinite search.
I'm well aware that BB(748) is an integer definable in classical logic. My claim is that "integer definable in classical logic" does not actually correspond well to what people mean by "number" in almost any other setting when pushed to extremes such as this.
I thought it was a typo. First time I encounter tetration.
When arithmetic is introduced just as a way to, for example, count money, it's more directly practical in the moment, but you're not seeing the larger pattern.
I don't get this part. Is it really rounding away the volume of the observable universe divided by the average volume of a grain of sand? That is many more orders of magnitude than the amount of mass in the universe, which is a more usual comparison.
10↑↑10,000,000 / (sand grains per universe) is vastly larger than, say, 10↑↑9,999,999
So on system we're using to write these numbers, there's really no better way to write (very big)/ (only universally big) than by writing exactly that, and then in the notation for very big, it pretty much rounds to just (very big).
In significant figures, 1.0 billion minus 1.0 million equals 1.0 billion.
However many universes in question, there is a qualitative difference between that many empty universes (with 1 grain), and that many completely packed with grain.
Ask anybody who lives in one!
For instance, if you personally owed $100 trillion, you wouldn't be much relieved by a court order that reduced your liability by 99%. Or, if you're looking at numbers in scientific notation, you don't much care about the difference between 2e40 and 5e40.
In this case, the ratio is around 10^200. An incomprehensibly vast number, to be sure.
But because tetration is the next operator up from exponentiation (the way exponents are from multiplication), any fixed divisor ceases to "matter" very quickly. The difference between 10^^10,000,000 and 10^^10,000,001 is (10^^10,000,000 to the tenth power), if my understanding is right.
There's basically no way to get it into comprehensible territory even with repeated divisions. 10^^1 = 10, 10^^2 = 10^10 (ten billion), and 10^^3 is 10^(10^10) = 10^10,000,000. Already, dividing by 10^200 isn't going to meaningfully affect your number (10^99,999,800).
10^^10,000,000 is that kind of incomprehensible growth that we just saw from 1 to 2 to 3, repeated 10 million times.
Recently on HN (couple of months ago): https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43776477
I've pondered that version of the question a bit, but I couldn't get very far due to my lack of expertise in first-order logic. What I do know is that Skelet #17 [0] is one of the toughest machines to prove non-halting on a mathematical level [1], so any theory sufficient to prove that Skelet #17 doesn't halt is likely sufficient to decide the rest of the 5-state machines.
[0] https://bbchallenge.org/1RB---_0LC1RE_0LD1LC_1RA1LB_0RB0RA
Oh! Of course! That sure clears things up for this non-expert. This is clearly a hardcore blog for people who have been doing this kind of research for decades. Kind of awesome to stumble upon something so unapologetically dense and jargony and written for a very specific audience!
Is it niche jargon, absolutely, but to say it's only accessible to people who have put in decades is selling yourself short.
Correct, the industry cares a lot more about Software Engineering than Computer Science.
> CS degree was essentially a math degree dressed up in a hoodie.
To a first approximation, that's what it's supposed to be. CS is a field of mathematics. It's not a trade school course.
People can't visualize numbers that big. There's more ways to express numbers than just counting them. For example a single grain of sand has infinite states it can be in (there are an infinite amount of real numbers), so you could say a single grain of sand could represent BB(6). Combinations can grow exponentially, so that may be something useful to try and express it.
I.e., how well can a system fake being inconsistent before that fact it discovered? An inconsistent system faking consistency via BB(3) will be “found out” much quicker than a system faking consistency via BB(6). (What I mean by faking consistency is claiming that all programs that run longer than BB(n) steps for some n never halt.)
Using infinite precision to make things seem tractable is sleight of hand in my book. Stick with integers when you're describing scale.
The mass-energy includes ordinary matter, dark matter, and dark energy. Current estimates suggest the observable universe contains roughly 10^53 kg of mass-energy equivalent.
Plugging these into S ≤ 2πER/ℏc gives someting on the order of 10^120 bits of maximum information content.
S ≤ 2πER/ℏc
S ≤ (2 × 3.141593 × 3.036e+71 × 4.399e+26)/(1.055e-34 × 299792458)
S ≤ 2.654135e+124
S ≤ 10^120
So, no.
Look at 3 sub 10 = which is (10^(10^10)). So that is 10 to the power of 10 billion. In regular decimal notation, that is a "1" with 10 billion "0"s following it. It takes 10 gigabytes of ram to represent the number in decimal notation, naively.
The number of atoms in the universe is only 10^80, or 1,000...000 (80 zeroes). 10-million sub 10 is so huge, how much ram to represent it.
This example is from https://www.statisticshowto.com/tetration-function-simple-de...
You can convert every atom of observable Universe into a substrate for supercomputer, you can harness energies of supermassive black holes to power it, but running a humble BB(6) to halting state would be forever out of its reach.
Unlike Aaronson, he actually is on the forefront of Busy Beaver research, and is one of the people behind the https://bbchallenge.org website
Extremely bad ad hominem, I enjoyed Aaronson's read, nothing wrong with it.
Colloquially, I understand it's easy to think it means "saying something about someone that could be interpreted negatively" because that's the context it is read in it when it is used.
The meaning is saying a logical argument is incorrect because of who wrote the argument.
>If you want to learn about actual Busy Beaver results [...]
This is saying there is no discussion of the results in the article, which is not true.
>Unlike Aaronson, he actually is on the forefront of Busy Beaver research [...]
This implies Aaronson has no (or lesser) authority on the subject and suggests we should listen to somebody else who purportedly has more.
Nowhere in @NooneAtAll3's comment is there an argument made against/for the contents of the article, an example of that would be:
"Aaronson mentions X but this is not correct because Y" or something along those lines.
Instead, the comment, in it's full extent, is either discrediting (perhaps unintentionally) and/or appealing to the authority of people involved. That's ad hominem.
It is implying that claims from the article like "Then, three days ago, Tristan wrote again to say that mxdys has improved the bound again, to BB(6)>9_2_2_2" are not real results. The justification for these not being real results is solely based off whether author is actually on the forefront of research.
I spent 5 minutes trying to verify any link in the post above links to Scott Aaronson, or mentions him, and found nothing. :\ (both the siglocki, and when I found nothing there, the busy beaver site)
"One Collatz Coincidence", the 2nd story on the blog, also mentions Aaronson
