undefined | Better HN

0 pointsdontlaugh10mo ago0 comments

More importantly, there's nothing like locals[] or __getattribute__.

0 comments

pjmlp10mo ago

Smalltalk has them, and its JIT research eventually became Hotspot.

Anything can change at any time in Smalltalk.

igouy10mo ago

And then we find out that Smalltalk implementations might choose to optimize instead of allowing anything to change at any time.

    ifFalse: alternativeBlock 
        "Answer the value of alternativeBlock. Execution does not actually
        reach here because the expression is compiled in-line."

        ^alternativeBlock value

pjmlp10mo ago

One tree doesn't make a forest, from whatever implementation that was taken out of, and naturally there are always magician tricks that PyPy also uses.

igouy10mo ago

*iirc* pretty much all of the Smalltalks (that was CUIS).

"Creating blocks in Smalltalk has always been a potential source of performance problems. … In Resilient, we have restricted blocks to be last in-first-out (LIFO)…"

https://blog.bracha.org/resilient-paper.pdf

"Digitalk’s Team/V unobtrusively introduced a non-reflective syntax…"

https://wirfs-brock.com/allen/posts/914

dontlaughOP10mo ago

Strongtalk limited dynamic features.

But you’re not wrong in general. Even for Python there’s PyPy, with a JIT ~3x faster than CPython.

pjmlp10mo ago

Strongtalk was the transition step between Smalltalk JITs and what became Sun's Hotspot, but that wasn't the main point I was making.

Also to note that even in that regard, Java happens to be more dynamic that people think, while the syntax is C++ like, the platform semantics are more akin to Smalltalk/Objective-C, hence why a JIT with such a background was a great addition.

hyperpape10mo ago

There's a pretty big gap between "its JIT research eventually became Hotspot" and "Smalltalk can be made to perform on a par with Hotspot."

pjmlp10mo ago

HN comments usually aren't big enough for a CS lecture regarding evolution of dynamic compilation, aka JIT.

There is enough stuff to fill at least one semester.

almostgotcaught10mo ago

yes there is: https://wiki.python.org/moin/UsingSlots

people really don't know enough about this to be talking about it with such confidence...

dontlaughOP10mo ago

I was pointing examples of the opposite, that JavaScript is less dynamic than Python.

There's lots of Python code out there that relies on not using slots. If you're making a JIT, you can't assume that all code is using slots.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

pjmlp10mo ago

Smalltalk has them, and its JIT research eventually became Hotspot.

Anything can change at any time in Smalltalk.

igouy10mo ago

And then we find out that Smalltalk implementations might choose to optimize instead of allowing anything to change at any time.

    ifFalse: alternativeBlock 
        "Answer the value of alternativeBlock. Execution does not actually
        reach here because the expression is compiled in-line."

        ^alternativeBlock value

pjmlp10mo ago

One tree doesn't make a forest, from whatever implementation that was taken out of, and naturally there are always magician tricks that PyPy also uses.

igouy10mo ago

*iirc* pretty much all of the Smalltalks (that was CUIS).

"Creating blocks in Smalltalk has always been a potential source of performance problems. … In Resilient, we have restricted blocks to be last in-first-out (LIFO)…"

https://blog.bracha.org/resilient-paper.pdf

"Digitalk’s Team/V unobtrusively introduced a non-reflective syntax…"

https://wirfs-brock.com/allen/posts/914

dontlaughOP10mo ago

Strongtalk limited dynamic features.

But you’re not wrong in general. Even for Python there’s PyPy, with a JIT ~3x faster than CPython.

pjmlp10mo ago

Strongtalk was the transition step between Smalltalk JITs and what became Sun's Hotspot, but that wasn't the main point I was making.

hyperpape10mo ago

There's a pretty big gap between "its JIT research eventually became Hotspot" and "Smalltalk can be made to perform on a par with Hotspot."

pjmlp10mo ago

HN comments usually aren't big enough for a CS lecture regarding evolution of dynamic compilation, aka JIT.

There is enough stuff to fill at least one semester.

almostgotcaught10mo ago

yes there is: https://wiki.python.org/moin/UsingSlots

people really don't know enough about this to be talking about it with such confidence...

dontlaughOP10mo ago

I was pointing examples of the opposite, that JavaScript is less dynamic than Python.

There's lots of Python code out there that relies on not using slots. If you're making a JIT, you can't assume that all code is using slots.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse