Ask HN: Help me navigate a PIP at a remote startup in the Netherlands

1) You've already been fired. This is just checking the [legal] boxes. You likely got fired due to no personal fault, and rather mismanagement on their part (e.g. over-hiring, flip-flopping projects, etc.).

2) Start working on your next steps after hours. Feeling like this is a temp situation will help.

3) 100% yes, they're trying to pressure you into leaving. Try to get the best terms you can.

4) Doesn't sound very "strategic" to over-stay somewhere that you call "day-to-day emotional drain of working with a manager who you feel is actively trying to undermine you." You should work on your exit.

You're talking about strategy, but realistically what do you imagine is the fairy-tail ending of this one? You get to drag it out painfully for both sides? Best case scenario you get to find a workplace that makes you happy, and let them continue their dysfunctional hell until they burn through all their runway without any actual product to show.

There are lots of reasons why people don't fit at a company, and only some of them are the employee's fault. But whose fault it is doesn't really matter. If you aren't happy and aren't appreciated, you should be out interviewing for better jobs. Somewhere there's a position where you'll be both happy and appreciated.

If you're on an employment based visa and in a country where you're unfamiliar with labor law, I think you need to consult with an attorney who has experience with both of these specialized areas in the country you're in. If your company has provided an immigration attorney for you already, they shouldn't be the one you use to pursue employment claims.

I'm on a PIP in the US... or was. I'm not sure. I was told I failed the PIP and was placed on paid administrative leave while they perform a fair treatment investigation I requested prior to the end of the PIP. Mine is also generic for "problem solving skills". My output is similar to my peers and I have additional responsibilities. They're firing me and promoting my peer. I also have multiple examples of them violating ADA protections. I'm friends with some managers and retired managers and they all agree that I'm getting screwed and to get a lawyer. My current manager was dumb enough to put some of the violations in writing and also told me I was being targeted. Sounds like you are also being targeted for generic stuff.

Good luck!

When my manager wanted to put me on a pip, an experienced HR friend recommended me to speak to an employment lawyer asap. They would help for a relatively small fee, and a percentage if they win. In many countries PIPs are subjective, and courts nudge to protecting employees. A lawyer can help you prepare to document and catch errors. It doesn't solve your problems but at least you have the chance to get a premium for your frustration.

This was not in the Netherlands, so things might be different, but probably similar to a certain extent.

Not all PIPs are firings. But combined with the contract amendment (which sounds illegal) and the disrespect, especially being excluded from the launch channel, it sounds like it is. Harassing people to quit is also illegal in many places.

I would say lawyer up. They're treading near illegal grounds here and the lawyer should give you advice on what you evidence you need. And they'd likely help you stay strategic.

Get a good lawyer. If there is a settlement, the lawyer can be paid out of the settlement, at no cost to you.

If possible, tailor the terms of the settlement to your situation. For example, I suspect an extended garden leave will be more interesting to you than a (heavily taxed) golden handshake.

At least you're in a country that got rid of Labour Day because labour won (lol)

It looks like the company is dying and wants to cut expenses. Your manager is trying to find something on you to push you out, and to make you doubt yourself so you'd jump ship, because that's what he's been told to do. Even if you manage to drag this out and stay, you will simply see how the ship sinks.

If the company has put you on a PIP or something similar, is located in the Netherlands, and it looks like they want you gone you're definitely out.

Trust me on that.

Been there, done that. Several times. Luckily I don't have to go through that kind of crap any longer.

Never heard of, or personally experienced, a PIP that didn't end with a job change. Plan accordingly dude

Ok, it sucks. Your options are to leave or wait it out. Either way, the pressure does not seem blatently irrational.

a big step down from my US salary. The main reason for the move was to get a visa and work in Europe

If that’s common knowledge in the team, it is probably is not particularly good for morale. If you tell people you are slumming out of self interest, it is unlikely to win friends, but will influence them.

The part that feels off is that the "messy" code they're pointing to is a direct result of the constant pivots and the "move fast" culture we've all been working in.

That’s a reason, not an excuse. Being senior means there are no excuses.

My manager's own PRs have introduced critical bugs that I've had to stay late to fix.

So what? Everyone makes errors. This smells like an issue with your boss.

Any advice

The question suggests cultural fit issues. Or are you the kind of person the team wants to work with. Good luck.

Probably it's all BS as others and yeah they're trying to manage you out and get a lawyer and all that stuff.

I would say, re the "emotional drain" and "being disrespected", learn to just get over yourself and your ego and suck it up during this challenging period, it's something you can learn from and take with you. For now, nothing has changed, they're still paying you, so you should still punch in / punch out, put in a reasonable / good faith effort while you are on their payroll.

You don't have to be a star performer, you can be talking to lawyers and looking for other jobs on the side, but if you can keep it together for the time being there's a better chance you'd get let go with a better settlement, they won't be able to come up with a "for cause" rationale, and frankly its just good manners / professional while you are on their payroll and a guest at their company.