undefined | Better HN

0 pointskazinator7mo ago0 comments

> I can't think of any interpretation that makes sense

Start with a concrete example. A header that is not in our program, or described in ISO C. How about:

  #include <winkle.h>

Defined behavior or not? How can an implementation respond to this #include while remaining conforming? What are the limits on that response?

> But header files do not have to have any particular correspondence to translation units.

A header inclusion is just a mechanism that brings preprocessor tokens into a translation unit. So, what does the standard tell us about the tokens coming from #include <winkle.h> into whatever translation unit we put it into?

Say we have a single file program and we made that the first line. Without that include, it's a standard-conforming Hello World.

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im3w1l7mo ago

I think we are slowly getting closer to the crux of the matter. Are you saying that it's a problem to include files from a library since they are "not in our program"? What does that phrase actually mean? What is the bounds of "our program" anyway? Couldn't it be the set {main.c, winkle.h}

kazinatorOP7mo ago

> What is the bounds of our program?

N3220: 5.1.1.1 Program Structure

A C program is not required to be translated in its entirety at the same time. The text of the program is kept in units called source files, (or preprocessing files) in this document. A source file together with all the headers and source files included via the preprocessing directive #include is known as a preprocessing translation unit. After preprocessing, a preprocessing translation unit is called a translation unit. Previously translated translation units may be preserved individually or in libraries. The separate translation units of a program communicate by (for example) calls to functions whose identifiers have external linkage, manipulation of objects whose identifiers have external linkage, or manipulation of data files. Translation units may be separately translated and then later linked to produce an executable program.

> Couldn't it be the set {main.c, winkle.h}

No; in this discussion it is important that <winkle.h> is understood not to be part of the program; no such header is among the files presented for translation, linking and execution. Thus, if the implementation doesn't resolve #include <winkle.h> we get the uninteresting situation that a constraint is violated.

Let's focus on the situation where it so happens that #include <winkle.h> does resolve to something in the implementation.

quietbritishjim7mo ago

The bit of the standard that you've quoted says that the program consists of all files that are compiled into it, including all files that are found by the #include directive. So, if <winkle.h> does successfully resolve to something, then it must be part of the program by definition because that's what "the program" means.

Your question about an include file that isn't part of the program just doesn't make any sense.

(Technically it says that those files together make up the "program text". As my other comment says, "program" is the binary output.)

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quietbritishjim7mo ago

Do you just meant an attempt to include a file path that couldn't be found? That's not a correct usage of the term "program" – that refers to the binary output of the compilation process, whereas you're taking about the source files that are the input to the compilation. That sounds a bit pedantic but I really didn't understand what you meant.

I just checked, and if you attempt to include a file that cannot be found (in the include path, though it doesn't use that exact term) then that's a constraint violation and the compiler is required to stop compilation and issue a diagnostic. Not undefined behaviour.

kazinatorOP7mo ago

Yes; we are more interested in the other case: it happens to be found.

What are the requirements then?

quietbritishjim7mo ago

I don't get your point then. If the file is found then there is no undefined behaviour in the process of the file being included. There might be undefined behaviour in the overall translation unit after the text has been substituted in, but that's nothing to do with the preprocessor.

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0 pointskazinator7mo ago0 comments

> I can't think of any interpretation that makes sense

Start with a concrete example. A header that is not in our program, or described in ISO C. How about:

  #include <winkle.h>

Defined behavior or not? How can an implementation respond to this #include while remaining conforming? What are the limits on that response?

> But header files do not have to have any particular correspondence to translation units.

Say we have a single file program and we made that the first line. Without that include, it's a standard-conforming Hello World.

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im3w1l7mo ago

kazinatorOP7mo ago

> What is the bounds of our program?

N3220: 5.1.1.1 Program Structure

> Couldn't it be the set {main.c, winkle.h}

Let's focus on the situation where it so happens that #include <winkle.h> does resolve to something in the implementation.

quietbritishjim7mo ago

Your question about an include file that isn't part of the program just doesn't make any sense.

(Technically it says that those files together make up the "program text". As my other comment says, "program" is the binary output.)

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quietbritishjim7mo ago

kazinatorOP7mo ago

Yes; we are more interested in the other case: it happens to be found.

What are the requirements then?

quietbritishjim7mo ago

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