Ask HN: Are there any non-SPA front end developers left?

11 pointskarolinepauls6mo ago13 comments

Back in "my days" we would get an in-house web designer to create assets, styles, and a demo HTML document demonstrating all necessary components to implement the planned content.

We would then break down the demo HTML into templates, which we would render in the backend, and work from there.

There would be JS for interactive components - first Knockout (viewmodels, terrible idea), then React (which would let you separate the state from presentation).

Backend templates + React frontend components was IMO the optimum, as long as your POST handling logic was sensible and data-oriented rather than some OO nightmare (https://wtforms.readthedocs.io/en/3.2.x/fields/#the-field-base-class).

You didn't have to implement the API separately from the frontend to later discover that your frontend developer worked really... fast. And implemented their own understanding of the problem domain. These days, if you're super unlucky, you discover that your frontend has been blessed with some non-standard component wrappers, which wrap components, which wrap components, which wrap... And somehow types in TS docs still have no links, so good luck finding what they mean by TData, especially if TData comes from a different codebase.

tl;dr: The tldr is in the title. I want sanity back :D

13 comments

gethly5mo ago

They never left. But SPA is now more in demand than the old school server-side rendering where you return HTML in your response and let the web browser render it as is.

Decoupling back-end logic from front-end logic has just too much positivise and advantages that doing SSR is just so 2000s. JS brought dynamicity into web page rendering a long time ago. With SPA, or maybe even PWA(who really uses these?), you get also decoupling from the server - a data dynamicity, so to speak.

In short, SPA turns a dumb web page into a dynamic and responsive application that can have the look and feel of a desktop program. Web is no longer static and slow but fast and lively.

Nowadays, static HTML is a niche use case for serving web pages. Like a personal blog or corporate website that is static in nature(information there change sparsely) and can be manually typed or compiled via static website builder, like Hugo.

austin-cheney6mo ago

I prefer to develop SPAs for personal use but with vanilla JS. My goal is both scalability, performance, and accessibility. Its hard to find employment that values things like high performance and test automation, so I switched to a different kind of software for employment where I was quickly elevated into management.

I don't want to go back to JavaScript for employment so long as its riddled with unnecessary abstraction/dependency nonsense. While I did get tired of solving for the numerous problems that shouldn't exist in the first place I got more tired of insecure peers who were always quick to point fingers. I don't have to worry about that any more.

cranberryturkey6mo ago

I'm starting to get into building .onion sites and my general experience is people on Tor all have js disabled. So I'm looking for a js-free framework that works with node.js (ironically)

Leftium6mo ago

SvelteKit has been designed so JS on the client can be optional. (All JS is executed in node.js, with optional JS enhancement on the client.)

Try playing Sverdle with JS disabled! https://sveltekit-template.vercel.app/sverdle

> Unlike the original Wordle, Sverdle runs on the server instead of in the browser, making it impossible to cheat. It uses <form> and cookies to submit data, meaning you can even play with JavaScript disabled!

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF6mo ago

> So I'm looking for a js-free framework that works with node.js (ironically)

I know you already called it out but there really is something funny about this. The primary reason I recall for node's popularity is that it means you only have to know one language. I guess that's still true...

leakycap6mo ago

SPA development is everywhere because you can charge a lot more for it, and web development has become commoditized in many other arenas

Sanity is available immediately if you are willing to be paid less. There are tons of simple, non-SPA, non-stack-on-stack projects out there, they just usually pay 1/10th the complex stuff.

karolinepaulsOP6mo ago

Sorry not to have made this clear: I am not a frontend developer. I'm a backend/infra developer who's forced to work on a React app abandoned by a frontend developer who incorporated their own wrappers-of-wrappers-of-wrappers.

Meanwhile the client is telling me is virtually impossible to find frontend devs willing to write HTML.

leakycap6mo ago

Almost any developer familiar with HTML would be willing to write HTML if they were paid similarly to making something flashy in React (to use your example)

Because I don't believe this is a real issue in the marketplace, I will write HTML for your client if they are truly unable to find someone. Writing HTML would be the easiest paid job I could imagine in my field right now.

andrei_says_5mo ago

Yes, of course.

Rails for example is SSR by default with a bit of js which speeds up the experience with zero dev effort. Anyone starting a greenfield rails project is spa free by default.

decafninja6mo ago

As recently as 2020 I know there were a decent number of old school ASP.NET sites at various Wall Street investment banks (and devs maintaining and even building new features for them).

I don’t know if that’s still the case.

fzwang5mo ago

If you haven't already, check out the HTMX community [1].

I think there's some recognition that a lot of SPAs didn't need to be SPAs in the first place. At the end of the day, you're just submitting a form for a CRUD app. Good ol' HTML + a sprinkle of JS was enough for most use cases. CSS has evolved to take away some of the stuff that required JS before.

At the moment, I don't think there's really any strong incentives to cut down the complexity of apps by moving away from SPAs. There's real job security in creating complexity. And in some big orgs it's unavoidable. It can change when developers are more aligned with long term outcomes (ex. a product that they own), which usually means smaller projects.

[1] https://htmx.org/

mierz006mo ago

Maybe I have misunderstood but this sounds like a ways of working problem as opposed to technology?

trumbitta25mo ago

Is there any non-SPA front end job market left?

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

Ask HN: Are there any non-SPA front end developers left?

11 pointskarolinepauls6mo ago13 comments

Back in "my days" we would get an in-house web designer to create assets, styles, and a demo HTML document demonstrating all necessary components to implement the planned content.

We would then break down the demo HTML into templates, which we would render in the backend, and work from there.

There would be JS for interactive components - first Knockout (viewmodels, terrible idea), then React (which would let you separate the state from presentation).

tl;dr: The tldr is in the title. I want sanity back :D

13 comments

gethly5mo ago

They never left. But SPA is now more in demand than the old school server-side rendering where you return HTML in your response and let the web browser render it as is.

In short, SPA turns a dumb web page into a dynamic and responsive application that can have the look and feel of a desktop program. Web is no longer static and slow but fast and lively.

austin-cheney6mo ago

cranberryturkey6mo ago

I'm starting to get into building .onion sites and my general experience is people on Tor all have js disabled. So I'm looking for a js-free framework that works with node.js (ironically)

Leftium6mo ago

SvelteKit has been designed so JS on the client can be optional. (All JS is executed in node.js, with optional JS enhancement on the client.)

Try playing Sverdle with JS disabled! https://sveltekit-template.vercel.app/sverdle

lcnPylGDnU4H9OF6mo ago

> So I'm looking for a js-free framework that works with node.js (ironically)

leakycap6mo ago

SPA development is everywhere because you can charge a lot more for it, and web development has become commoditized in many other arenas

Sanity is available immediately if you are willing to be paid less. There are tons of simple, non-SPA, non-stack-on-stack projects out there, they just usually pay 1/10th the complex stuff.

karolinepaulsOP6mo ago

Meanwhile the client is telling me is virtually impossible to find frontend devs willing to write HTML.

leakycap6mo ago

Almost any developer familiar with HTML would be willing to write HTML if they were paid similarly to making something flashy in React (to use your example)

andrei_says_5mo ago

Yes, of course.

Rails for example is SSR by default with a bit of js which speeds up the experience with zero dev effort. Anyone starting a greenfield rails project is spa free by default.

decafninja6mo ago

As recently as 2020 I know there were a decent number of old school ASP.NET sites at various Wall Street investment banks (and devs maintaining and even building new features for them).

I don’t know if that’s still the case.

fzwang5mo ago

If you haven't already, check out the HTMX community [1].

[1] https://htmx.org/

mierz006mo ago

Maybe I have misunderstood but this sounds like a ways of working problem as opposed to technology?

trumbitta25mo ago

Is there any non-SPA front end job market left?

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse