undefined | Better HN

0 pointsdrob5184mo ago0 comments

I’m curious why they chose MDL rather than Lisp for it. Sure, it would have been ancient MACLISP or whatever, but why not leverage what was already in wide use at MIT at the time?

0 comments

WorldMaker4mo ago

MDL is what was in wide use at MIT at the time, the PDP-10 era. The M in MDL is sometimes "MIT" in the various backronyms of what it stood for. (Mostly it was apparently just short for "muddle", a self-deprecating description.)

(Also, to be technically correct, these source files aren't even MDL, they are a further descendant called ZIL [Zork Implementation Language].)

drob518OP4mo ago

Yea, I get that MDL came from MIT, but I have to think that MACLISP was far more used at MIT at that time. But maybe not.

WorldMaker4mo ago

It sounds like from what I've read MACLISP and MDL were side-by-side for a while at MIT and something of a department choice. MACLISP sounds like the serious effort and I read MDL as the "hip" or maybe rebellious upstart with a weirder sense of humor (it was called Muddle and spelled MDL to make it seem like an appropriately serious acronym), which would also make some sense that Zork originated in that allowed to be sillier language.

(Also, in reading other comments around here, I've learned there's a deeper connection in MDL to Scheme than I knew before, so I hadn't realized the Lisp/Scheme split even has ties to this "competition" of Lisp languages at MIT.)

larsbrinkhoff4mo ago

Because Zork was written on the MIT Dynamic Modeling PDP-10. MDL was an important part of the software ecosystem on that computer, but Lisp wasn't. On the other MIT PDP-10 computers, Maclisp reined.

drob518OP4mo ago

Was there any particular reason they did that, or was it just a random coincidence (that was the team that wrote it and the hardware they had access to was that particular machine and that particular machine ran MDL, otherwise, it would have been MACLISP)? Was there anything about MDL that helped with writing an adventure game?

staplung4mo ago

MDL is also from MIT and supposedly stood for More Datatypes than Lisp. According to wikipedia "MDL provides several enhancements to classic Lisp. It supports several built-in data types, including lists, strings and arrays, and user-defined data types. It offers multithreaded expression evaluation and coroutines."

Seems that most of it's novelties were eventually added into LISP proper.

jjtheblunt4mo ago

maybe they just made a mini-lisp and called it MDL?

drob518OP4mo ago

It’s very Lispy, but it’s not strictly Lisp. Why, for instance, use “<“ and “>” to surround various forms but not others? If they were to make a mini-Lisp, I’d expect something more like Gnu Emacs Lisp, something that’s obviously a Lisp, but heavily influenced by the Lisps of the day. I’ve found a few old MDL manuals linked from Wikipedia, but none of them have any sort of “Here’s why we created MDL” section that I could find.

DonHopkins4mo ago

MDL is Grue Emacs Lisp ;)

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

WorldMaker4mo ago

(Also, to be technically correct, these source files aren't even MDL, they are a further descendant called ZIL [Zork Implementation Language].)

drob518OP4mo ago

Yea, I get that MDL came from MIT, but I have to think that MACLISP was far more used at MIT at that time. But maybe not.

WorldMaker4mo ago

larsbrinkhoff4mo ago

Because Zork was written on the MIT Dynamic Modeling PDP-10. MDL was an important part of the software ecosystem on that computer, but Lisp wasn't. On the other MIT PDP-10 computers, Maclisp reined.

drob518OP4mo ago

staplung4mo ago

Seems that most of it's novelties were eventually added into LISP proper.

jjtheblunt4mo ago

maybe they just made a mini-lisp and called it MDL?

drob518OP4mo ago

DonHopkins4mo ago

MDL is Grue Emacs Lisp ;)

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse