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0 pointsXelbair3mo ago0 comments

The issue is not with the lack of understanding of "process". But sheer frustration because there's nothing you can do as just a citizen. An unelected council of !notAyatollah has decided, and this thing is being pushed at glacier slow pace.

If EU is a trade union this is a severe overreach, if EU wants to be a federation, there's not enough checks and balances. This is the crux of the problem.

The issue is that this is a legislation that only ones in power want(censorship on communications channel where they themselves are exempt from it), that has been pushed over and over again under different names(it goes so far back - it started with ACTA talks and extreme surveillance proposals to fight copyright violations) and details in implementation and/or excuse(this time we get classic "think of the children")

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saubeidl3mo ago

The Council is a meeting of the heads of state, all of which are elected in their respective countries.

Your problem is with the leadership of countries, not with the EU as an institution. I agree that it is a problem btw, but I think you got the wrong culprit. This isn't pushed on the states by the EU, this is the states using the EU to push it and launder the bad publicity.

XelbairOP3mo ago

My problem is that i as a citizen can vote for my heads of state, but if other parts of EU decided something my vote is null and void, EVEN if majority of EU citizens are against such issue.

Imagine is those issues were campaign promises and part of internal(country's) elections - they aren't in reality but we can set that aside for now. as it was extremely well said by sibling post.

My country is 80% against 20% in favor(in practice it is even more skewed towards 'no' for chat control!), other EU countries are 51% for, 49% against.

Yet such 'vote' by heads of state counts whole countries in,if you were to count individual votes majority of EU citizens would be against it.

This allows you to pass undesirable or extremely contentious legislation, that would most likely prevent you from being elected in the future in your local elections but you can easily shift the blame too!

This is as far form democracy as possible, it is pure bureaucracy that serves it's own goals.

kmeisthax3mo ago

The irony is that this is all because the EU was specifically designed to not supercede its member states. In other words, they repeated the same mistake[0] the US did. Fixing it - i.e. ditching all the appointed positions that are responsive to nation states only - would amount to federalizing the EU.

"But why can't we just leave the EU to stop this" - too late. Most EU countries have enough intra-EU migration and trade to make leaving unthinkable. The UK was a special case - and, ironically enough, actually responsible for some of the EU's worst decisions.

Furthermore, this isn't exactly an EU exclusive problem. Every supranational organization that is responsive to member states and not individual voters is a policy laundering mechanism. Ask yourself: where's your representation in the WTO, and when did you vote for them? The sum of democracy and democracy is dictatorship. Any governing body that does not respect all of its voters equally is ripe for subsumption by people who do not respect them at all.

[0] Originally, US senators were appointed by state governors. This eventually resulted in everyone voting for whatever governor promised to appoint the senator the voter wanted. Which is sort of like throwing away your gubernatorial vote for a senatorial one. This is why we amended the constitution to allow direct election of senators, and I hold that any sovereign nation that makes the mistake of appointed politicians will inevitably have to either abandon it or fail.

saubeidl3mo ago

This brings up a structural issue with the EU as it is designed right now - trying to give maximum power to nation states.

A unitary state would solve that problem by allowing us to have simple, Union-wide elections instead.

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iso16313mo ago

In the UK all I can do is vote for my member of parliament. The victorious member may or may not get in with a majority of votes (about half get under 50%)

They then in effect elect a Prime Minister, who appoints an executive, who create laws and then put them to parliament

In the US you can vote for the leader of the executive directly. 64% of Vermont voted for Harris, yet they still got Trump.

> in practice it is even more skewed towards 'no' for chat control

My understanding is that the public as a whole do not want chat control, yet the democratically elected heads of each member government do want it. The problem here is the democratically elected heads of each member government.

Doesn't take many council members to be against it to stop it in its tracks.

anonymous9082133mo ago

The culprit is correct. If the EU exists for political laundering, then it is the organisation which is harmful to the people's interests. Nobody voted for any of these heads of states on a platform of enacting Chat Control. That was not on the ballot or the platform of any party in any individual EU country. If it was, they would not have voted for it. If an individual party tried to initiate a chat control bill in its own country, it would surely face a massive reckoning at the next election[1]. Therefore, an individual party would likely not undertake to enact chat control. It is the existence of the EU which is enabling politicians to force undesirable legislation on their populace. In that environment, it is entirely correct to call the EU an un-democratic process. If it exists to pass legislation nobody would vote for and take the blame, then it will in fact be rightfully at blame and provide a strong motivation for people to exit the EU.

[1] In fact, we have helpfully seen this play out with our friendly early exiter. The remarkably self-destructive Labour party has passed their own absolute nonsense "online safety" bill, and are likely to be utterly destroyed in the next election with repealing the bill being part of the platform of the party that is polling at ~twice the share of the next largest party. With the EU providing blame-as-a-service, though, it is unlikely that anybody will be able to repeal Chat Control once rammed through, without exiting the EU entirely.

saubeidl3mo ago

You provide your own counterexample. The UK left the EU and all it got for it was a quicker passing of it's "online safety" nonsense with none of the checks and balances (EU parliament, ECHR) that would stop it in the EU.

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saubeidl3mo ago

The Council is a meeting of the heads of state, all of which are elected in their respective countries.

XelbairOP3mo ago

My problem is that i as a citizen can vote for my heads of state, but if other parts of EU decided something my vote is null and void, EVEN if majority of EU citizens are against such issue.

Imagine is those issues were campaign promises and part of internal(country's) elections - they aren't in reality but we can set that aside for now. as it was extremely well said by sibling post.

My country is 80% against 20% in favor(in practice it is even more skewed towards 'no' for chat control!), other EU countries are 51% for, 49% against.

Yet such 'vote' by heads of state counts whole countries in,if you were to count individual votes majority of EU citizens would be against it.

This is as far form democracy as possible, it is pure bureaucracy that serves it's own goals.

kmeisthax3mo ago

saubeidl3mo ago

This brings up a structural issue with the EU as it is designed right now - trying to give maximum power to nation states.

A unitary state would solve that problem by allowing us to have simple, Union-wide elections instead.

1 more reply

iso16313mo ago

In the UK all I can do is vote for my member of parliament. The victorious member may or may not get in with a majority of votes (about half get under 50%)

They then in effect elect a Prime Minister, who appoints an executive, who create laws and then put them to parliament

In the US you can vote for the leader of the executive directly. 64% of Vermont voted for Harris, yet they still got Trump.

> in practice it is even more skewed towards 'no' for chat control

Doesn't take many council members to be against it to stop it in its tracks.

anonymous9082133mo ago

saubeidl3mo ago

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