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0 pointsskrebbel3mo ago0 comments

For decades the West, and Germany in particular, tried to turn Russia from an enemy into a trading partner and eventually an ally. Naive, in hindsight? Sure thing. But that doesn’t change the fact that there’s absolutely no reason for Russia to be enemies with the West other than Putin’s imperialist ambitions.

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CapricornNoble3mo ago

US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev (The Guardian, Nov2004) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

Do you think fomenting revolution in Russia's near-abroad sphere of influence was helpful or harmful for turning Russia into an ally?

af783mo ago

The linked article is long on opinion, short on facts. The content does not support the headline. This is likely part of a Russian influence campaign (they did not start yesterday), aimed at de-legitimizing the protest movement and denying that Ukrainian citizens had any agency.

Besides, did you know that the Kuchma government sent Ukrainian soldiers to Afghanistan and Iraq (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_involvement_in_the_I...)? Why would the US government want to overthrow a sympathetic regime?

CapricornNoble3mo ago

Are you suggesting that the Russians were using __ The Guardian __ as part of an influence campaign....in 2004? That's an extraordinary claim, for which you present no supporting evidence while blasting the article for being "short on facts". Pot, kettle, black. Here's Radio Free Europe on the subject:

https://www.rferl.org/a/1058543.html it specifically calls out amounts paid to organizations in Serbia, Georgia, and Ukraine via the National Endowment for Democracy, which is funded via Congress and the State Department.

>Besides, did you know that the Kuchma government sent Ukrainian soldiers to Afghanistan and Iraq

Yes, I know that. I bring it up anytime somebody says "Ukraine never invaded anybody!"

> Why would the US government want to overthrow a sympathetic regime?

To replace a sympathetic leader they DON'T control with an even more sympathetic leader they DO control. Wresting control of the political apparatus in a state often outlasts any singular "elected" Executive.

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codedokode3mo ago

To be fair, in 90s-10s the West invaded multiple Soviet and Russian allies (Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, as an example) using weakness of Russian economy an inability to help the allies at the time. That was not a friendly act. USSR withdrew from Eastern Germany in the end of 80s as a gesture of good will in hope to improve the relations, but it was never reciprocated.

mopsi3mo ago

  > To be fair, in 90s-10s the West invaded multiple Soviet and Russian allies (Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, as an example) using weakness of Russian economy an inability to help the allies at the time.

The NATO intervention in the Yugoslav wars lasted only a few months, killed fewer people than the Serbs executed on some of their most productive single weekends, and brought a definitive end to a decade of civil wars. Please explain how this is negative and what reason Russians have to bitch about it all the time.

If anything, the intervention should have taken place far sooner. Many, many civilian lives could have been saved while NATO allies spent years merely watching people in Europe being murdered for their ethnic background.

  >  USSR withdrew from Eastern Germany in the end of 80s as a gesture of good will in hope to improve the relations, but it was never reciprocated.

Gesture of goodwill, gimme a break. The USSR ran out of money and ceased to exist entirely (1991) before the last Soviet forces left Germany (1994).

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CapricornNoble3mo ago

US campaign behind the turmoil in Kiev (The Guardian, Nov2004) https://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/nov/26/ukraine.usa

Do you think fomenting revolution in Russia's near-abroad sphere of influence was helpful or harmful for turning Russia into an ally?

af783mo ago

CapricornNoble3mo ago

>Besides, did you know that the Kuchma government sent Ukrainian soldiers to Afghanistan and Iraq

Yes, I know that. I bring it up anytime somebody says "Ukraine never invaded anybody!"

> Why would the US government want to overthrow a sympathetic regime?

1 more reply

codedokode3mo ago

mopsi3mo ago

  > To be fair, in 90s-10s the West invaded multiple Soviet and Russian allies (Yugoslavia, Iraq, Syria, as an example) using weakness of Russian economy an inability to help the allies at the time.

  >  USSR withdrew from Eastern Germany in the end of 80s as a gesture of good will in hope to improve the relations, but it was never reciprocated.

Gesture of goodwill, gimme a break. The USSR ran out of money and ceased to exist entirely (1991) before the last Soviet forces left Germany (1994).

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse