Declassifying JUMPSEAT: an American pioneer in space (opens in new tab)

(nro.gov)

52 pointsmkmk1mo ago26 comments

26 comments

This blows me away. I worked on systems that processed the signals from these satellites at the ground sites. At the time, these were highly classified, requiring background investigations and a polygraph to be granted access to know about these things. All our work had to be performed in a SCIF and we were forbidden to discuss our work with anyone not cleared to know. The form that we had to sign when being briefed stated that this was a lifetime commitment. I never would have believed that the NRO would declassify this system.

Neywiny1mo ago

I'm sure I don't need to say it, but what got declassified and the work you did are very, very different things. Pretty much everything in the notice is included in this article, so anything you're not reading.... Best to keep to yourself.

sizzzzlerz1mo ago

Not to worry. Unlike trump, I didn't remove classified info from the SCIF and store it in my bathroom or share it with Russian dinner guests. I hold my oaths seriously.

1 more reply

Ms-J1mo ago

That's what happens to a large amount of classified info; it ends up getting released eventually for various reasons.

Information needs and wants to be free for humankind.

pseudohadamard1mo ago

Was this really that secret? I've known about JUMPSEAT for at least 20 years and I'm not a US citizen, nor do I have any kind of security clearance. Not sure where the information was published, maybe one of James Bamford's books, but there's nothing terribly new there apart from the USG finally acknowledging what we already knew.

sizzzzlerz1mo ago

Knowing that some classified program exists is one thing. Knowing technical details, capabilities, missions, targeting, is a whole nother. One can read about such black programs from a number of sources, Bamford's Puzzle Palace is one. Sontag's Blind Man's Bluff is another. You can also learn about such things from books and newspaper articles about people who revealed secret information to the Soviet Union, Chris Boyce, Aldrich Ames, Robert Hanssen, and the Walker Family. In other words, nothing is truly secret if you know where to look and have a ability to piece together disparate facts to build up a more complete picture.

1 more reply

Biggbboattttt1mo ago

Interesting point! I think a lot of the secrecy around programs like JUMPSEAT is more about official acknowledgment than actual hidden knowledge so what’s been publicly available for years suddenly becomes ‘news’ once the government confirms it. James Bamford’s work definitely made a lot of this info accessible to the public, so it makes sense that someone could know about it without clearance.

1 more reply

kevin_thibedeau1mo ago

You also lose 4A for life per executive order.

kevin_thibedeau1mo ago

For the downvoters. See EO12333 2.4(b) & (c):

  2.4 Collection Techniques...
  These procedures shall not authorize:
  ...
  (c) Physical surveillance of a United States
      person in the United States by agencies
      other than the FBI, except for:

  (1) Physical surveillance of present or former
      employees, present or former intelligence
      agency contractors or their present or former
      employees, or applicants for any such
      employment or contracting; and

  (2) Physical surveillance of a military person
      employed by a nonintelligence element of a
      military service.

This is written to look like it's constitutional but it's granting power through the wide-ranging exceptions. The upshot is it grants all agencies other than the FBI approval to surveil individuals covered by 2.4(c)1 & 2. The FBI gets a complete blank check on everyone. Covering "former employees" means this remains in effect until death for those affected.

https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/execu...

Syzygies1mo ago

(4A = Fourth Amendment, "unreasonable searches and seizures")

gpt51mo ago

If you are curious what this is about. The US effectively wanted a geostationary satellite parked right over the high-latitude regions of the Soviet Union to intercept their signals.

The problem is, that geostationary satellites must orbit directly above the equator. If you try to look at northern Russia from the equator, the curvature of the Earth gets in the way.

So, the NRO used a Molniya (HEO) orbit as a clever cheat.

They launched JUMPSEAT into a stretched-out ellipse. Because of orbital mechanics, a satellite moves incredibly fast when it's close to Earth (perigee) but slows down dramatically when it's far away (apogee). It spends about 10 hours of its 12-hour orbit just loitering high above the USSR, slowly drifting across the sky, essentially emulating a geostationary satellite.

shrubble1mo ago

Molniya, the Russian word for “lightning”, of course indicates that the equivalent Russian agency was aware of and used this orbit, also.

ExoticPearTree1mo ago

Its the other way around, the soviets were the first to use this kind of orbit and proved its usefulness, hence the name.

dcrazy1mo ago

Thanks for filling in the missing link on why this program was special. Otherwise, it just seems like an announcement that NRO does indeed use satellites.

mkmkOP1mo ago

Declassification memo: https://www.nro.gov/Portals/135/Documents/foia/JUMPSEAT%20Re...

dcrazy1mo ago

I’m surprised that the classification markings, all of which include “TK, were merely struck through instead of blacked out. But I guess the cat’s been out of the bag on the meaning of TALENT KEYHOLE for quite a while.

buildbot1mo ago

“The fact that JUMPSEAT formed the foundation to follow on HEO systems”

Well that’s an interesting blurb from the declassification memo -https://www.nro.gov/Portals/135/Documents/foia/JUMPSEAT%20Re...

unwind1mo ago

“The historical significance of JUMPSEAT cannot be understated,” said Dr. James Outzen, NRO director of the Center for the Study of National Reconnaissance.

I'm no native speaker but that is backwards, right? Shouldn't it be overstated if it was a success?

bonzini1mo ago

I think so, "whatever you boast it's not overstating" -> cannot be overstated.

vessenes1mo ago

Native here: you’re correct it’s a weird sentence and turn of phrase in English.

That said, can/cannot is a flexible word in English and we could take it to mean “Anyone discussing the significance of JUMPSEAT [accurately] [should never] understate it.”

But I think he meant overstate in this case. Or maybe he hated JUMPSEAT, thought it sucked and put that right out there in the press release.

ExoticPearTree1mo ago

I am kind of curious: if this kind of data collection was possible then, what is it possible today to see and collect using satellites?

Feels like all the crazy satellite capabilities in spy movies are not that crazy after all.

nradov1mo ago

The laws of physics haven't changed. Despite some technical advancements we still can't read a license plate from a satellite like what you see in the movies. This is due to fundamental physical limits.

halJordan1mo ago

The president actually tweeted it out for you

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

26 comments

sizzzzlerz1mo ago

Neywiny1mo ago

sizzzzlerz1mo ago

Not to worry. Unlike trump, I didn't remove classified info from the SCIF and store it in my bathroom or share it with Russian dinner guests. I hold my oaths seriously.

1 more reply

Ms-J1mo ago

That's what happens to a large amount of classified info; it ends up getting released eventually for various reasons.

Information needs and wants to be free for humankind.

pseudohadamard1mo ago

sizzzzlerz1mo ago

1 more reply

Biggbboattttt1mo ago

1 more reply

kevin_thibedeau1mo ago

You also lose 4A for life per executive order.

kevin_thibedeau1mo ago

For the downvoters. See EO12333 2.4(b) & (c):

  2.4 Collection Techniques...
  These procedures shall not authorize:
  ...
  (c) Physical surveillance of a United States
      person in the United States by agencies
      other than the FBI, except for:

  (1) Physical surveillance of present or former
      employees, present or former intelligence
      agency contractors or their present or former
      employees, or applicants for any such
      employment or contracting; and

  (2) Physical surveillance of a military person
      employed by a nonintelligence element of a
      military service.

https://www.archives.gov/federal-register/codification/execu...

Syzygies1mo ago

(4A = Fourth Amendment, "unreasonable searches and seizures")

gpt51mo ago

If you are curious what this is about. The US effectively wanted a geostationary satellite parked right over the high-latitude regions of the Soviet Union to intercept their signals.

The problem is, that geostationary satellites must orbit directly above the equator. If you try to look at northern Russia from the equator, the curvature of the Earth gets in the way.

So, the NRO used a Molniya (HEO) orbit as a clever cheat.

shrubble1mo ago

Molniya, the Russian word for “lightning”, of course indicates that the equivalent Russian agency was aware of and used this orbit, also.

ExoticPearTree1mo ago

Its the other way around, the soviets were the first to use this kind of orbit and proved its usefulness, hence the name.

dcrazy1mo ago

Thanks for filling in the missing link on why this program was special. Otherwise, it just seems like an announcement that NRO does indeed use satellites.

mkmkOP1mo ago

Declassification memo: https://www.nro.gov/Portals/135/Documents/foia/JUMPSEAT%20Re...

dcrazy1mo ago

buildbot1mo ago

“The fact that JUMPSEAT formed the foundation to follow on HEO systems”

Well that’s an interesting blurb from the declassification memo -https://www.nro.gov/Portals/135/Documents/foia/JUMPSEAT%20Re...

unwind1mo ago

“The historical significance of JUMPSEAT cannot be understated,” said Dr. James Outzen, NRO director of the Center for the Study of National Reconnaissance.

I'm no native speaker but that is backwards, right? Shouldn't it be overstated if it was a success?

bonzini1mo ago

I think so, "whatever you boast it's not overstating" -> cannot be overstated.

vessenes1mo ago

Native here: you’re correct it’s a weird sentence and turn of phrase in English.

That said, can/cannot is a flexible word in English and we could take it to mean “Anyone discussing the significance of JUMPSEAT [accurately] [should never] understate it.”

But I think he meant overstate in this case. Or maybe he hated JUMPSEAT, thought it sucked and put that right out there in the press release.

ExoticPearTree1mo ago

I am kind of curious: if this kind of data collection was possible then, what is it possible today to see and collect using satellites?

Feels like all the crazy satellite capabilities in spy movies are not that crazy after all.

nradov1mo ago

halJordan1mo ago

The president actually tweeted it out for you

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse