cl yourprogram.c /link user32.lib advapi32.lib ... etc etc ...
The Visual Studio toolchain does have LTSC and stable releases - no one seems to know about them though. see: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/visualstudio/releases/2022... - you should use these if you are not a single developer and have to collaborate with people. Back like in the old days when we had pinned versions of the toolchain across whole company.
[1] https://download.visualstudio.microsoft.com/download/pr/5d23...
You only get access to the LTSC channel if you have a license for at least Visual Studio Professional (Community won't do it); so a lot of hobbyist programmers and students are not aware of it.
On the other hand, its existence is in my experience very well-known among people who use Visual Studio for work at some company.
There are licensing constraints, IANL but essentially you need a pro+ license on the account if you're going to use it to build commercial software or in a business environment.
VS 2008 is starting to show the elephantine... no, continental land-mass bloat that VS is currently at, and has a number of annoying bugs, but it's still vastly better than anything after about VS 2012. And the cool thing is that MS can't fuck with it any more. When I fire up VS tomorrow it'll be the exact same VS I used today, not with half a dozen features broken, moved around, gone without a trace, ...
Visual studio is a dog but at least it's one dog - the real hell on windows is .net framework. The sheer incongruency of what version of windows has which version of .net framework installed and which version of .net your app will run in when launched... the actual solution at scale for universal windows compatibility on your .net app is to build a c++ shim that checks for .net beforehand and executes it with the correct version in the event of multiple version conflict - you can literally have 5 fully unique runtimes sharing the same .net target.
If you somehow experience an actual dependency issue that involves glibc itself, I'd like to hear about it. Because I don't think you ever will. The glibc people are so serious about backward and forward compatibility, you can in fact easily look up the last time they broke it: https://lwn.net/Articles/605607/
Now, if you're saying it's a dependency issue resulting from people specifying wrong glibc version constraints in their build… yeah, sure. I'm gonna say that happens because people are getting used to pinning dependency versions, which is so much the wrong thing to do with glibc it's not even funny anymore. Just remove the glibc pins if there are any.
As far as the toolchain as a whole is concerned… GCC broke compatibility a few times, mostily in C++ due to having to rework things to support newer C++ standards, but I vaguely remember there was a C ABI break somewhere on some architecture too.
What? There was a huge breakage literally last year: https://sourceware.org/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=32653
Glibc has been a source of breakage for proprietary software ever since I started using Linux. How many codebases had to add this line around 2014 (the year I brought my first laptop)?
__asm__ (".symver memcpy, memcpy@GLIBC_2.2.5");Only the latest .NET Framework 4.8 is shipped with Windows at this point.
That seems more a property of npm dependency management than linux dependency management.
To play devil's advocate, the reason npm dependency management is so much worse than kernel/os management, is because their scope is much bigger, 100x more package, each package smaller, super deep dependency chains. OS package managers like apt/yum prioritize stability more and have a different process.
.NET Framework should only be used for legacy applications.
Unfortunately there are still many around that depend on .NET Framework.
Microsoft sadly doesn't prioritize this so this might still be the case for a couple of years.
One thing I credit MS for is that they make it very easy to use modern C# features in .NET Framework. You can easily write new Framework assemblies with a lot of C# 14 features. You can also add a few interfaces and get most of it working (although not optimized by the CLR, e.g. Span). For an example see this project: https://www.nuget.org/packages/PolySharp/
It's also easy to target multiple framework with the same code, so you can write libraries that work in .NET programs and .NET Framework programs.
Had fewer issues on EndeavourOS (Arch) compared to Fedora overall though... I will stay on Arch from now on.
However, there were version problems: some Linux distributions had only stable packages and therefore lacked the latest updates, and some had problems with multiple versions of the same library. This gave rise to the language-specific package managers. It solved one problem but created a ton of new ones.
Sometimes I wish we could just go back to system package managers, because at times, language-specific package managers do not even solve the version problem, which is their raison d'être.
uv has more of less solved this (thank god). Night and day difference from Pip (or any of the other attempts to fix it honestly).
At this point they should just deprecate Pip.
I’d really love to understand why people get so mad about pip they end up writing a new tool to do more or less the same thing.
That's where I stopped.
Toolchains on linux distributions with adults running packaging are just fine.
Toolchains for $hotlanguage where the project leaders insist on reinventing the packaging game, are not fine.
I once again state these languages need to give up the NIH and pay someone mature and responsible to maintain packaging.
And when it inevitably leads to all kinds of weird issues the packagers of course can't be reached for support, so users end up harassing the upstream maintainer about their "shitty broken application" and demanding they fix it.
Sure, the various language toolchains suck, but so do those of Linux distros. There's a reason all-in-one packaging solutions like Docker, AppImage, Flatpak, and Snap have gotten so popular, you know?
I am so fed up with this! Please if you're writing an article using LLMs stop writing like this!
“This isn’t just [what the thing literally is]; it’s [hyperbole on what the thing isn’t].”
In the UK, Marks and Spencer have a long-running ad campaign built around it (“it’s not just food, it’s...”)
Em dashes are fine too.
Er, sorry. I meant: the purpose isn't just drama—it's a declaration of values, a commitment to the cause of a higher purpose, the first strike in a civilizational war of independence standing strong against commercialism, corporatism, and conformity. What starts with a single sentence in an LLM-rewritten blog post ends with changing the world.
See? And I didn't even need an LLM to write that. My own brain can produce slop with an em dash just as well. :)
You can then build a script/documentation that isolates your specific requirements and workloads:
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/install/use-c...
Had to do this back in 2018, because I worked with a client with no direct internet access on it's DEV/build machines (and even when there was connectivity it was over traditional slow/low-latency satellite connections), so part of the process was also to build an offline install package.
(And - it is better on a shared-machine to have everything installed "machine-wide" rather than "per-user", same as PowerShell modules - had another client recently who had a small "C:" drive provisioned on their primary geo-fenced VM used for their "cloud admin" team and every single user was gobbling too much space with a multitude of "user-profile" specific PowerShell modules...)
But - yes, even with a highly trimmed workload it resulted in a 80gb+ offline installer. ... and as a server-admin, I also had physical data-center access to load that installer package directly onto the VM host server via external drive.
> curl -L -o msvcup.zip https://github.com/marler8997/msvcup/releases/download/v2026...
No thanks. I’m not going to install executables downloaded from an unknown GitHub account named marler8997 without even a simple hash check.
As others have explained the Windows situation is not as bad as this blog post suggests, but even if it was this doesn’t look like a solution. It’s just one other installation script that has sketchy sources.
Just like those complaining about curl|sh on Linux, you are confusing install instructions with source code availability. Just download the script and read it if you want. The curl|sh workflow is no more dangerous that downloading an executable off the internet, which is very common (if stupid) and attracts no vitriol. In no way does it imply that you can not actually download and read the script - something that actually can't be done with downloaded executables.
You do because the downloaded ZIP contains an EXE, not a readable script, that then downloads the compiler. Even if you skip that thinking "I already have VS set up", the actual build line calls `cl` from a subdirectory.
I'm not going to reconstruct someone's build script. And that's just the basic example of a one file hello world, a real project would call `cl` several times, then `link`, etc.
Just supplying a SLN + VCXPROJ is good enough. The blog post's entire problem is also solved by the .vsconfig[1] file that outlines requirements. Or you can opt for CMake. Both of these alternatives use a build system I can trust over randomgithubproject.exe, along with a text-readable build/project file I can parse myself to verify I can trust it.
1: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/install/impor...
It actually is for a lot of subtle reasons, assuming you were going to check the executable checksum or something, or blindly downloading + running a script.
The big thing is that it can serve you up different contents if it detects it's being piped into a shell which is in theory possible, but also because if the download is interrupted you end up with half of the script ran, and a broken install.
If you are going to do this, its much better to do something like:
sh -c "$(curl https://foo.bar/blah.sh)"
[0] https://github.com/marlersoft/zigwin32 [1] https://github.com/microsoft/win32metadata
But if this is LLM content then it does seem like the LLMs are still improving. (I suppose the AI flavour could be from Grammarly's new features or something.)
This was either written by Claude or someone who uses Claude too much.
I wish they could be upfront about it.
It's hated by everyone, why would people imitate it? You're inventing a rationale that either doesn't exist or would be stupider than the alternative. The obvious answer here it they just used an LLM.
> and clearly it serves some benefit to readers.
What?
This is purely an artifact of training and has nothing to do with real human writing, which has much better variety.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Signs_of_AI_writing#...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Signs_of_AI_writing#...
The shitty AI writing is so distracting I had to stop reading.
What if it was?
What if it wasn't?
What if you never find out definitely?
Do you wonder that about all content?
If so, doesn't that get exhausting?
I came back around 2017*, expecting the same nice experience I had with VB3 to 6.
What a punch in the face it was...
I honestly cannot fathom anyone developing natively for windows (or even OSX) at this day and age.
Anything will be a webapp or a rust+egui multi-plataform developed on linux, or nothing. It's already enough the amount of self-hate required for android/ios.
* not sure the exact date. It was right in the middle of the WPF crap being forced as "the new default".*
I personally like the content and the style of the article. I never managed to accept going through the pain to install and use Visual Studio and all these absurd procedures they impose to their users.
[1] https://www.pangram.com/history/300b4af2-cd58-4767-aced-c4d2...
Alternatively, there's this:
Install Visual Studio Build Tools into a container to support a consistent build system | Microsoft Learn
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/install/build...
I don't understand how open source projects can insist on requiring a proprietary compiler.
Just use Clang + MSVC STL + WinSDK. Very simple.
`winget install --id Microsoft.VisualStudio.2022.BuildTools`.
If you need the Windows(/App) SDK too for the WinRT-features, you can add `winget install --id Microsoft.WindowsSDK.10.0.18362` and/or `winget install --id Microsoft.WindowsAppRuntime.1.8`
I used to just install the desktop development one and then work through the build errors until I got it to work, was somewhat painful. (Yes, .vsconfig makes this easier but it still didn’t catch everything when last I was into Windows dev).
Newer C# features like ref returns, structs, spans, et. al., make the overhead undetectable in many cases.
At $workplace, we have a script that extracts a toolchain from a GitHub actions windows runner, packages it up, stuffs it into git LFS, which is then pulled by bazel as C++ toolchain.
This is the more scalable way, and I assume it could still somewhat easily be integrated into a bazel build.
Edit: Uses a shit load less actual energy than full-building a product thousands of times that never gets run.
The only issue currently plaguing Windows development is the mess with WinUI and WinAppSDK since Project Reunion, however they are relatively easy to ignore.
People don't need any UNIX biases to just want multiple versions of MSVS to work the way Microsoft advertises. For example, with every new version of Visual Studio, Microsoft always says you can install it side-by-side with an older version.
But every time, the new version of VS has a bug in the install somewhere that changes something that breaks old projects. It doesn't break for everybody or for all projects but it's always a recurring bug report with new versions. VS2019 broke something in existing VS2017 installs. VS2022 broke something in VS2019. etc.
The "side-by-side-installs-is-supposed-to-work-but-sometimes-doesn't" tradition continues with the latest VS2026 breaking something in VS2022. E.g. https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/issues/51796
I once installed VS2019 side-by-side with VS2017 and when I used VS2017 to re-open a VS2017 WinForms project, it had red squiggly lines in the editor when viewing cs files and the build failed. I now just install different versions of MSVS in totally separate virtual machines to avoid problems.
I predict that a future version VS2030 will have install bugs that breaks VS2026. The underlying issue that causes side-by-side bugs to re-appear is that MSVS installs are integrated very deeply into Windows. Puts files in c:\windows\system32, etc. (And sometimes you also get the random breakage with mismatched MSVCRT???.DLL files) To avoid future bugs, Microsoft would have to re-architect how MSVS works -- or "containerize" it to isolate it more.
In contrast, gcc/clang can have more isolation without each version interfering with each other.
I'm not arguing this thread's msvcup.exe tool is necessary but I understand the motivations to make MSVS less fragile and more predictable.
That's why docker build environments are a thing - even on Windows.
Build scripts are complex, and even though I'm pretty sure VS offers pretty good support for having multiple SDK versions at the same time (that I've used), it only takes a single script that wasn't written with versioning in mind, to break the whole build.
I wouldn't start an app in most of them today, but I wouldn't rewrite one either without a good reason.
"winget install Microsoft.VisualStudio.BuildTools"
"winget install Microsoft.WindowsSDK.10.0.26100"
Every language should have a tool like Python uv.
Install multiple versions of Windows SDK. They co-exist just fine; new versions don’t replace old ones. When I was an independent contractor, I had 4 versions of visual studio and 10 versions of windows SDK all installed at once, different projects used different ones.
Can you generate .vsconfig with Build Tools?
In the span of ~2hrs I didn't manage to find a way to please Zig compiler to notice "system" libraries to link against.
Perhaps I'm too spoiled by installing a system wide dependency in a single command. Or Windows took a wrong turn a couple of decades ago and is very hostile to both developers and regular users.
The system libraries should only ship system stuff: interaction with the OS (I/O, graphics basics, process management), accessing network (DNS, IP and TLS). They should have stable APIs and ABIs.
Windows isn't hostile. It has a differnt paradigm and Unix (or more correctly usually GNU/Linux) people do not want to give up their worldview.
PCRE is basically only your apps's dependency. It has nothing else to do the rest of the operating system. So it is your responsibility to know how to build and package it.
All dependencies should be vendored into your project.
I have a vague memory of stumbling upon this hell when installing the ldc compiler for dlang [1].
1. https://wiki.dlang.org/Building_and_hacking_LDC_on_Windows_u...
That package manager command, at the very least, pulls in 50+ packages of headers, compilers, and their dependencies from tens of independent projects, nearly each of them following its own release schedule. Linux distributions have it much harder orchestrating all of this, and yet it's Microsoft that cannot get its wholly-owned thing together.
Then you also specify target platform sdk versions in the .csproj file and VS will automatically prompt the developer to install the correct toolchain.
[0] https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/global-j...
What you’re actually wanting here is .vsconfig https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/install/impor...
If you are compiling for your native system, yes.
But as soon as you try cross-compiling, you are in for a lot of pain.
* I wonder if Microsoft intentionally doesn't provide this first party to force everyone to install VS, especially the professional/enterprise versions. One could imagine that we'd have a vsproject.toml file similar to pyproject.toml that just does everything when combined with a minimal command line tool. But that doesn't exist for some reason.
How to match it with cuda to compile from source the repos?
Programming Windows with MFC, Second Edition Subsequent Edition by Jeff Prosise (Author)
Programming Windows®, Fifth Edition (Microsoft Programming Series) Subsequent Edition by Charles Petzold (Author)
This tool would be a great help if I knew beforehand.
This is fantastic and someone at Microslop should take notes.
https://gist.github.com/mmozeiko/7f3162ec2988e81e56d5c4e22cd...
Just give me a VM. Then you will know, and I will know, every facet of the environment the work was done in.
If you're just a guy trying to compile a C application on Windows, and you end up on the mingw-w64 downloads page, it's not exactly smooth sailing: https://www.mingw-w64.org/downloads/
Supporting Windows without MinGW garbage is really really easy. Only supporting MinGW is saying “I don’t take this platform seriously so you should probably just ignore this project”.
A bug got opened against the rustup installing the headless toolchain by itself at some point. I'll see if I can find it
edit: VSCode bug states this more clearly https://github.com/microsoft/vscode/issues/95745
winget install Microsoft.VisualStudio.2022.BuildTools
Has anyone tried doing this on ReactOS? I know this is a touch DIY, but it would be interesting to know if Win sofware could be built on ReactOS...
You’ve never experienced genuine pain in your life. Have you tried to change the GCC compiler version in Linux?
apt install gcc-11
CC=gcc-11 make
If it’s not packaged and you’ve got to build it yourself, Godspeed. An if you’ve got to change libc versions…
What needs to be fixed is the valley between unix and windows development for cross-os/many-compiler builds, so one that does both can work seamlessly.
It's not an easy problem and there are lots of faux solutions that seem to fix it all but don't (in builds, the devil is in edge cases).
You just need the required build tools.
If you've ever had to setup a CI/CD pipeline for a Visual Studio project then you've had to do this.
Really? A 50GB IDE? How the heck one knows what goes in there?
My beloved FreeBSD 15.0 PLUS its Linux VM PLUS its docker env PLUS its dependencies and IDE are close to 26Gb and pretty sure I'm taking into account a lot of things I shouldn't, so the actual count is much less than that.
Developing software under a Windows platform is something that I cannot understand, since many many many years ago.
Install:
- contrary to the blog post, the entirety of Visual Studio, because the IDE and debugger is *really damn good*.
- LLVM-MinGW[1]
cl.exe from VS
clang-cl.exe—you don't need to install this separately in VS; just use the above-mentioned llvm-mingw clang.exe as `clang.exe --driver=cl /winsysroot <path\to\Windows SDK> /vctoolsdir <path\to\VC>`. Or you can use it in GNU-driver-style mode, and use -Xmicrosoft-windows-sys-root. This causes it to target the Windows ABI and links against the VS SDK/VC tools
`clang.exe` that targets the Itanium ABI and links against the MinGW libraries and LLVM libc++.
People really like overcomplicating their lives.
At the same time, learn the drawbacks of all toolchains and use what is appropriate for your needs. If you want to write Windows drivers, then forget about anything non-MSVC (unless you really want to do things the hard way for the hell of it). link.exe is slow as molasses, but can do incremental linking natively. cl.exe's code gen is (sometimes) slightly worse than Clang's. The MinGW ABI does not understand things like SAL annotations[3], and this breaks very useful libraries like WIL[4] (or libraries built on top of them, like the Azure C++ SDK[5] The MinGW headers sometimes straight up miss newer features that the Windows SDK comes with, like cfapi.h[6].
[1]: https://github.com/mstorsjo/llvm-mingw
[2]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/visualstudio/ide/reference...
[3]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/cpp/c-runtime-library/sal-...
[4]: https://github.com/microsoft/wil
[5]: https://github.com/Azure/azure-sdk-for-cpp
[6]: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-gb/windows/win32/cfapi/build-...
Good to know LLVM works on windows too though.
This script is great. Just use it. The title saying “I fixed” is moderately offensive glory stealing.
this seems to go down the road towards attempts at determinsticish builds which i think is probably a bad idea since the whole ecosystem is built on rolling updates and a partial move towards pinning dependencies (using bespoke tools) could get complicated.
are we doomed to only read AI slop from now on? to get a couple paragraphs in and suddenly be hit with the realization that is AI?
it's all so tiresome
I fixed windows native development. Band together friends, force WSL3 as the backbone of Windows.
Step 2. Install your preferred flavor of Linux
Step 3. Set-up dev tools
Step 4. Profit??
What year is it?! Also, haven't heard any complaints regarding VS on MacOS, how ironic...
> msvcup is inspired by a small Python script written by Mārtiņš Možeiko.
No. Martins fixed. OP made a worse layer on top of Martins great script.
TLDR: I don't understand my native command line, see how lost I got when I tried to do my thing in a different environment.
- Not a unique problem to Windows or even MSVC; He's gonna hate XCode, - Making Python a bootstrap dependency = fail, - Lacks self-awareness to recognize aversion vs avoidance,
My background is distinctly non-Windows, but I survive around Windows so well that people think I'm a Mickeysoft type. And no, I don't use mingw, cygwin, ...
If any of the obstacles this user faced were legitimate, nobody would ever make any money on Windows, including and especially Microsoft - a company whose developers have the same challenges.
I'm being harsh because _mea quondam culpa_ and it's correctable.
Everything this user went thru is the result of aversion instead of avoidance.
To _avoid_ long deep dives into Windows, you need to recognize there is a different vocabulary and a radically different jargon dialect at play.
1. Learn a tiny minimum of Powershell; it's based on the same POSIX spec as bash and zsh, but like Python, Javascript, etc, instead of byte as the fundamental unit, they use objects. So there's less to learn to reach a greater level of convenience than soiling yourself with DOS/CMD/BAT. On Windows, pwsh has a default set of linux-like aliases to minimize the learning required for minimal operability. And never have to type \ instead of / for a directory separator.
2. Microsoft make money from training. To sell their meat-free steak (* ingredient: saw dust), they feed the suits an all-you-can-eat calorie, nutrition, and protein free buffet of documenting everything in great detail and routinely "streamlining" the names and terminology.
Development on Windows is in a different reference frame, but relative to their own reference frames, they're ultimately not all that different.
Approach in your "foreign language" mindset; English alphabet but the words mean different things.
3. What not how. "How do I grep" means you are trying to random access bytes out of a random access character stream. "What's the command to search for text in files?" well, if you're bloody mindedly using cmd, then it's "find".
4. Seriously, learn a little Powershell.
I only approached Powershell hoping to gain material for a #SatansSphincter anti-ms rant while using it as a Rosetta Stone for porting shell scripts in our CI for Windows.
I mean, it is based on the same POSIX spec as sh, bash, and zsh, with a little Perl thrown in. That can't not go horribly, insidiously, 30-rock wrong in the hands of MS, right?
Turned out, it's the same paradigm shift perl/shell users have to make when coming into Python:
from `system("ps | grep hung")` to `"hung" in system("ps")`; from `system("ifconfig -a | sed 's/\<192\.168\.0\./10.0.0./g'")` to `system("ifconfig -a").replace("192.168.0.", "10.0.0.")`
`grep` is a command that applies an assumption to a byte stream, often the output of a command.
In powershell, executing a command is an expression. In the case of a simple command, like "ps", that expression resolves to a String, just like system(...) does in Python.
Learning even a small amount of Powershell is immensely helpful in better understanding your enemy if you're going to have to deal with Windows. The formal names for official things use "verb-singularnoun".
That last part of the convention is the magic: the naming of things on Windows is madness designed to sell certifications, so crazy even MS ultimately had to provide themselves a guide.
Incremental compilation, and linking, parallel builds, hot code reloading, REPL, graphical debugging optimised builds, GPU debugging....
Go is better left for devops stuff like Docker and Kubernetes, and Zig remains to be seen when it becomes industry relevant beyond HN and Reddit forums.
I got anxiety reading the article, describing exactly why it sucks. It's nice to know from the article and comments here there are ways around it, but the way I have been doing it was the "hope I check the right checkboxes and wait a few hours" plan. There is usually one "super checkbox" that will do the right things.
I have to do this once per OS [re]install generally.
Now with AI, I would think that porting a native program to the browser wouldn't be the chore it once was.
As long as you don't give a shit about the fact that your baseline memory consumption is now 500MB instead of 25MB, and that 80% of your CPU time is wasted on running javascript through a JIT and rendering HTML instead of doing logic, no.
If you don't give a shit about your users or their time, there's indeed no longer a need to write native programs.
I did try using python and js but the variable explorer is garbage due to 'late binding'.
I thought this was just my ignorance, but I've asked experts, AI, and google searched and they unfortunately agree. That said, some people have created their own log/prints so they don't need to deal with it.