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0 pointsalephnerd27d ago0 comments

The median SWE TC in the Bay Area is $272k [0]. After tax and a fully loaded Roth 401K that is around $143,000.

And that's just for 1 person. Your spouse (if you have one) is most likely also working in a white collar job as well which we'll impute with the median income in they Bay which is $75k [1], but in reality is an underestimate as your spouse is likely to work in a tech, biotech, medicine, finance, accounting, healthcare, or government adjacent field which would increase their income significantly.

Using the $75k imputed spousal take-home, that would make your joint household income after tax and both maxing out Roth 401k to be around $180,000.

Renting a 2-4 bedroom single family home in a family friendly locale like the Tri-Valley, South Bay, or the Peninsula comes out to around $4.5K/mo, which means you have around $126K per year.

Let's remove $26K due to household expenses (which I personally think is excessive - my household operates on $1.5K/mo and we live pretty extravagantly in San Francisco) and you end up with $100K in cash after a fully loaded 401K, taxes, and rent.

Put around 60-65% of that in a couple ETFs (expecting around 5%-9% returns) and the remaining 35-40% in liquid cash savings.

That means you have around $60K per year invested in easy to liquidate assets, around $50K per year invested for retirement, and around $40K per year in hard cash.

This is why it works and why most people in Tech still remain in the Bay or NYC (similar math).

If you cannot live lean with a 3 person household using the math above in the Bay Area - a region where the MEDIAN household income is $137K [2] - then frankly you have major character defects.

[0] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-fra...

[1] - https://www.bayareaequityatlas.org/indicators/median-earning...

[2] - https://vitalsigns.mtc.ca.gov/indicators/income

0 comments

lotsofpulp27d ago

It was mostly a joke about the flippant way your comment added in "keep your family and friends close" after moving to highest cost places in the world.

First, many people may not want to move, even if their kids or siblings move. Other people have friends and family too.

Second, many people may not have the skills or drive to get the "median" paying job necessary to live the desired quality of life.

Third, many people and/or their family may not be healthy enough to afford dual high income households.

Obviously, earning a lot of money while spending minimally is a path to success, and obviously moving to the Bay Area and NYC is one of the higher probability routes to success and upward movement (at least financial), but it's not without other costs.

For those with the desire to attain that financial success, I encourage them to follow the playbook. But I would not expect them to keep friends and family close.

alephnerdOP27d ago

> First, many people may not want to move, even if their kids or siblings move. Other people have friends and family too.

Absolutely, but then they shouldn't complain on HN that they aren't getting jobs because they aren't open to relocating from Skokie to San Jose.

> many people may not have the skills or drive to get the "median" paying job

The 25th percentile TC for a SWE is 200K in the Bay Area [0]. If you are not even in the top 75 percent of SWEs you are already on the chopping block.

> obviously moving to the Bay Area and NYC is one of the higher probability routes to success and upward movement (at least financial), but it's not without other costs. For those with the desire to attain that financial success, I encourage them to follow the playbook.

The brutal reality is, if you aren't working in the Bay or NYC, we are going to offshore you. We can get the cream of the crop in Europe, Israel, or India with a Chicago, Dallas, or Atlanta TC along with added FDI subsidizes. As such, we have no reason to hire a median employee for 100% WFH who lives outsides the Bay+NYC and pay what is essentially a premium.

Additionally, you don't have to live in the Bay or NYC forever. Spend 10-15 years of your career, build that nest egg, and then return to your hometown if you really dislike the Bay or NYC. You will have reached financial independence and that gives you the flexibility to take a $75k-120k TC dev role (at that pricepoint you are safe from offshoring if you are a Bay+NYC tier developer).

> But I would not expect them to keep friends and family close

If you cannot afford to fly to our fly out your retired parents to stay with you for a couple weeks and can't fly out to meet with them with the priors I mentioned, then you have major issues. Most Asian American (Chinese, Indian, Vietnamese, Japanese, Korean, etc) and Eastern European (Russians, Israelis, etc) families would do something similar in the Bay.

[0] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-fra...

lotsofpulp27d ago

Flying parents in for a couple weeks is not what I interpret as "keeping friends and family close".

I interpret that as more like parents/siblings/cousins/close friends live in the neighborhood or close enough that they can be depended on and vice versa during illnesses/extended work hours/whatever else.

>Spend 10-15 years of your career, build that nest egg, and then return to your hometown if you really dislike the Bay or NYC. You will have reached financial independence and that gives you the flexibility to take a $75k-120k TC dev role (at that pricepoint you are safe from offshoring if you are a Bay+NYC tier developer).

You might have reached financial independence, or you might not. You might have been able to meet a suitable life partner in that location, or might not. Maybe you would have found a more compatible partner closer to home, via your network of family and friends. You might be able to reach financial independence before having a baby, or you might watch your prime child rearing years pass you by.

I have lived it, and I have seen my peers live it. I know lots of families split between NY/Bay Area/Seattle/LA/Boston/London/etc. The family members see each other on special occasions, but it doesn't have the same vibe as being part of a family or friends circle that interacts at least weekly if not daily. Everyone is rich, and has fun together for a couple nights of food and drinks, but who is really there for one another when shit hits the fan? There is no shared struggle, only shared vacation, and that cultivates only weak social bonds. But then again, who needs strong social bonds when you're on the way to $10M+ in the brokerage account?

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dzonga27d ago

you're doing the honorable by offering solutions

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 pointsalephnerd27d ago0 comments

The median SWE TC in the Bay Area is $272k [0]. After tax and a fully loaded Roth 401K that is around $143,000.

Using the $75k imputed spousal take-home, that would make your joint household income after tax and both maxing out Roth 401k to be around $180,000.

Renting a 2-4 bedroom single family home in a family friendly locale like the Tri-Valley, South Bay, or the Peninsula comes out to around $4.5K/mo, which means you have around $126K per year.

Put around 60-65% of that in a couple ETFs (expecting around 5%-9% returns) and the remaining 35-40% in liquid cash savings.

That means you have around $60K per year invested in easy to liquidate assets, around $50K per year invested for retirement, and around $40K per year in hard cash.

This is why it works and why most people in Tech still remain in the Bay or NYC (similar math).

If you cannot live lean with a 3 person household using the math above in the Bay Area - a region where the MEDIAN household income is $137K [2] - then frankly you have major character defects.

[0] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-fra...

[1] - https://www.bayareaequityatlas.org/indicators/median-earning...

[2] - https://vitalsigns.mtc.ca.gov/indicators/income

0 comments

lotsofpulp27d ago

It was mostly a joke about the flippant way your comment added in "keep your family and friends close" after moving to highest cost places in the world.

First, many people may not want to move, even if their kids or siblings move. Other people have friends and family too.

Second, many people may not have the skills or drive to get the "median" paying job necessary to live the desired quality of life.

Third, many people and/or their family may not be healthy enough to afford dual high income households.

For those with the desire to attain that financial success, I encourage them to follow the playbook. But I would not expect them to keep friends and family close.

alephnerdOP27d ago

> First, many people may not want to move, even if their kids or siblings move. Other people have friends and family too.

Absolutely, but then they shouldn't complain on HN that they aren't getting jobs because they aren't open to relocating from Skokie to San Jose.

> many people may not have the skills or drive to get the "median" paying job

The 25th percentile TC for a SWE is 200K in the Bay Area [0]. If you are not even in the top 75 percent of SWEs you are already on the chopping block.

> But I would not expect them to keep friends and family close

[0] - https://www.levels.fyi/t/software-engineer/locations/san-fra...

lotsofpulp27d ago

Flying parents in for a couple weeks is not what I interpret as "keeping friends and family close".

1 more reply

dzonga27d ago

you're doing the honorable by offering solutions

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse