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0 pointsdeadbabe2mo ago0 comments

It’s largely impossible now, it’s not a technical problem, it’s cultural.

UO forced many different types of players to coexist in the same world that simply do not mix anymore. You had peaceful dungeon crawlers and craftsmen coexisting alongside killers, rapists, thieves (wild that stealing items from other players inventory was actually a thing, probably unheard of in today’s MMOs).

The friction between these different types of players is where the magic happened, it’s what created real conflict and higher stakes in the world. When you stepped out of your house, there was always a risk that killers could be lurking ready to murder you and loot your house dry. And if you forget to lock the door, someone passing by will clean your house out for anything valuable.

In a way, old school UO was a true Middle Ages type MMO, everything since then has only grown more civilized, more enshittified. People don’t want to pay for a world that doesn’t give a shit if they have a bad experience. The truth is though there was no “bad experience”, it was all just an experience.

0 comments

codezero2mo ago

Oh boy, you reminded me of the tag teamers where a pick pocket would steal your bag of runes (that you use to teleport to safety), then attack you while you try to fumble a teleport back home, only to find you can't locate your bag of runes.

The defense to this was to carry dozens upon dozens of nested bags, because each bag opening could trip the pick pocket detection.

Also the defense to your home was to literally circle it in tents/buildings creating an empty courtyard that you could only teleport into with a rune you kept safely in your bank box. There were some warping bugs that would allow you into a courtyard though, or even through the front door (circle of visibility bug, as well as floor tile warping).

knicholes2mo ago

Stealing black pearl was great because it prevented recall AND energy bolt!

jghn2mo ago

don't forget that Corp Por was not always the dominant combat spell. For instance there was the An Mani era of combat, and while i don't remember their names bot lightning bolt and meteor swarm were the dominant combat spell for a while as well

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stackghost2mo ago

>The truth is though there was no “bad experience”, it was all just an experience.

I mean there absolutely were bad experiences. Griefing drove lots of players away, which is why they implemented Trammel.

mapt2mo ago

You approach that from a game design perspective to reduce the reward and set bounds on how much fun a player is allowed to destroy maliciously and what kind of counterplay is available, but if you completely eliminate it the world loses a lot of its drama. Conflict drives narrative.

jghn2mo ago

I know Raph Koster has spent a lot of time since he designed UO thinking about this problem. I haven't looked at his current project but am curious to what extent he's licked this issue.

deadbabeOP2mo ago

Grief is a natural consequence of player freedom, but it’s not worth giving up that freedom for some safety.

Barrin922mo ago

turns out it is for a lot of players which is why the kind of game is extinct. Just like in the real world, there's a fine line between risk and adventure and walking into something that looks like Liu Cixin's the Dark Forest.

You want enough friction to generate interesting interactions, you don't want so much freedom that the worst exploiters start to crowd out every honest player, because then, just like in a rundown lawless neighborhood, you're getting a lesson in the broken window theory and you're only left with the scammers.

jghn2mo ago

That's great until a game designer discovers that grief chases away the majority of players, and the griefers themselves will leave if they have no one to grief.

So from a philosophical perspective sure you're right. But from a dollars and cents perspective it's just good business to find ways to legislate griefing out of games. And that's why the market moved the direction it did.

JoshTriplett2mo ago

There are games that managed to allow PvP while also having places players can be safe, whether axiomatically, or by having enough players interested in providing protection that there are safe locations you can count on not being attacked because anyone trying will be quickly caught.

pjc502mo ago

Players don't want to be continually victimized. That game design drives away all but a tiny minority of players.

haolez2mo ago

These are the words and thoughts that I couldn't organize myself. Thank you for that. Fully agree.

tagami2mo ago

"bank guards vendor buy"

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

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codezero2mo ago

The defense to this was to carry dozens upon dozens of nested bags, because each bag opening could trip the pick pocket detection.

knicholes2mo ago

Stealing black pearl was great because it prevented recall AND energy bolt!

jghn2mo ago

1 more reply

stackghost2mo ago

>The truth is though there was no “bad experience”, it was all just an experience.

I mean there absolutely were bad experiences. Griefing drove lots of players away, which is why they implemented Trammel.

mapt2mo ago

jghn2mo ago

I know Raph Koster has spent a lot of time since he designed UO thinking about this problem. I haven't looked at his current project but am curious to what extent he's licked this issue.

deadbabeOP2mo ago

Grief is a natural consequence of player freedom, but it’s not worth giving up that freedom for some safety.

Barrin922mo ago

jghn2mo ago

That's great until a game designer discovers that grief chases away the majority of players, and the griefers themselves will leave if they have no one to grief.

JoshTriplett2mo ago

pjc502mo ago

Players don't want to be continually victimized. That game design drives away all but a tiny minority of players.

haolez2mo ago

These are the words and thoughts that I couldn't organize myself. Thank you for that. Fully agree.

tagami2mo ago

"bank guards vendor buy"

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse