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0 pointsshort_sells_poo17d ago0 comments

Because the power is disproportionally concentrated with one party - the service provider. The users of the service are numerous, comparatively small and uncoordinated.

In a situation like that, users have no means of resisting egregious terms, and no you cannot pull up stuff like "if you don't like it, don't buy it". As I wrote, the users are uncoordinated, and would take a huge effort to coordinate. Boycotting services rarely works (if ever). So what we end up with is that legal teams employed by firms optimize to shove as much bullshit into ToS as they can, the users grind their teeth and bear the bullshit, and get shittier service. Nobody really wins, because I'd argue the marginal gain for the company is minimal at best from this.

The government is not there just to enforce laws, but also to legislate such that the scales are balanced. Otherwise we may as well live in a dictatorship.

0 comments

stinkbeetle17d ago

But some terms were claimed to be reasonable. If power being disproportionate is sufficient to void terms, why not those terms too?

> The government is not there just to enforce laws, but also to legislate such that the scales are balanced. Otherwise we may as well live in a dictatorship.

Should the state just prohibit all agreements between two parties unless the state's adjudicator decides they are exactly equal in "power" and permits it? Sounds horrific, like a dictatorship. The government is not my guardian and does not do my thinking for me. I get that many people are subservient and would much prefer that, but that's no good either. There's an enormous middle ground between anarchy and "the state intervenes to allegedly 'balance the scales' in every aspect of peoples' private lives".

danlitt17d ago

> If power being disproportionate is sufficient to void terms, why not those terms too?

Power being disproportionate is obviously not sufficient to void terms - that's not what the comment you're replying to said. It is necessary to void terms when there is a power imbalance.

> Should the state just prohibit all agreements between two parties unless the state's adjudicator decides they are exactly equal in "power" and permits it?

This is obviously ridiculous and makes me think you are not arguing in good faith. Terms have to justify their existence according to logical principles that we argue about. It does not follow that there has to be a "state's adjudicator"! I am just describing how democracies come up with laws - it is not some fantasy Orwellian nightmare.

> I get that many people are subservient and would much prefer that

Ironic comment!

stinkbeetle17d ago

> Power being disproportionate is obviously not sufficient to void terms - that's not what the comment you're replying to said. It is necessary to void terms when there is a power imbalance.

What are you trying to say here? I didn't claim the previous poster didn't think it was necessary, I was just commenting on the sufficiency part of the claim -- sufficient being a subset of necessary.

> This is obviously ridiculous and makes me think you are not arguing in good faith.

What is ridiculous is that you're pretending not to recognize a reductio ad absurdum, particularly in the context of a reply that included McDonalds dictating how you eat a hamburger! Makes me think you are not arguing in good faith, I may be forced to report you to an adjudicator to rule on how we are permitted to debate.

> Terms have to justify their existence according to logical principles that we argue about.

And that's exactly what I'm asking about. OP made a claim about what terms were "justified" and I'm trying to find out the basis for them.

> Ironic comment!

It isn't, you're just unable to address it.

1 more reply

ahartmetz17d ago

> Should the state just prohibit all agreements between two parties unless the state's adjudicator decides they are exactly equal in "power" and permits it?

It's pretty simple. You can write whatever you want into a contract, but if you want to enforce an unreasonable term, you will lose in court and might be forced to remove the term from current and future contracts. That's how it works everywhere. The difference between legislations is just what is considered a reasonable term.

quesera17d ago

> The government is not my guardian and does not do my thinking for me.

This is a quaintly (US) American perspective.

The government is and does literally both of those things, and the arguments in these threads are about the fine details of the manner in which they should continue doing so in the future.

short_sells_pooOP17d ago

> Should the state just prohibit all agreements between two parties unless the state's adjudicator decides they are exactly equal in "power" and permits it.

This is a strawman and you know it. Please at least make an attempt to argue in good faith, otherwise there's no point.

Of course there should be a reasonable middle-ground. The current situation with completely bogus ToS is not it.

Let me turn it around: should the state just abandon it's duty of creating an fair and equal playing field between large corporations and clients and let society devolve into a corporatocracy where laws are enforced purely to further corporate interests? Because that's exactly what you seem to be suggesting.

See? Not particularly conductive to discourse, is it :D

stinkbeetle17d ago

> This is a strawman and you know it.

Uh yes? And you clearly know it too. It was a bit like your McDonalds strawman.

> Please at least make an attempt to argue in good faith, otherwise there's no point.

No need to get in a huff when we obviously both know what we're talking about. It's not conducive to the discussion.

> Of course there should be a reasonable middle-ground. The current situation with completely bogus ToS is not it.

I don't know exactly what the current situation with completely bogus ToS is, I'm willing to accept it could be adjusted. I was asking specifically about your proposed adjustment to it though. Your reasons for the new framework you suggested.

> Let me turn it around: should the state just abandon it's duty of creating an fair and equal playing field between large corporations and clients and let society devolve into a corporatocracy where laws are enforced purely to further corporate interests? Because that's exactly what you seem to be suggesting.

That isn't what I was suggesting. I was asking you how you came to your conclusion in the previous post. (EDIT: Sorry you did not conclude that, the grandparent did the parent of my first post you replied to, but you posted seemingly in support)

Teever17d ago

Why needlessly complicate this with so many obtuse hypotheticals when you can just look at other countries that have objectively lower crime rates, greater citizen happiness levels, lower wealth inequality and see how the solved this problem?

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

stinkbeetle17d ago

But some terms were claimed to be reasonable. If power being disproportionate is sufficient to void terms, why not those terms too?

> The government is not there just to enforce laws, but also to legislate such that the scales are balanced. Otherwise we may as well live in a dictatorship.

danlitt17d ago

> If power being disproportionate is sufficient to void terms, why not those terms too?

Power being disproportionate is obviously not sufficient to void terms - that's not what the comment you're replying to said. It is necessary to void terms when there is a power imbalance.

> Should the state just prohibit all agreements between two parties unless the state's adjudicator decides they are exactly equal in "power" and permits it?

> I get that many people are subservient and would much prefer that

Ironic comment!

stinkbeetle17d ago

> Power being disproportionate is obviously not sufficient to void terms - that's not what the comment you're replying to said. It is necessary to void terms when there is a power imbalance.

> This is obviously ridiculous and makes me think you are not arguing in good faith.

> Terms have to justify their existence according to logical principles that we argue about.

And that's exactly what I'm asking about. OP made a claim about what terms were "justified" and I'm trying to find out the basis for them.

> Ironic comment!

It isn't, you're just unable to address it.

1 more reply

ahartmetz17d ago

> Should the state just prohibit all agreements between two parties unless the state's adjudicator decides they are exactly equal in "power" and permits it?

quesera17d ago

> The government is not my guardian and does not do my thinking for me.

This is a quaintly (US) American perspective.

The government is and does literally both of those things, and the arguments in these threads are about the fine details of the manner in which they should continue doing so in the future.

short_sells_pooOP17d ago

> Should the state just prohibit all agreements between two parties unless the state's adjudicator decides they are exactly equal in "power" and permits it.

This is a strawman and you know it. Please at least make an attempt to argue in good faith, otherwise there's no point.

Of course there should be a reasonable middle-ground. The current situation with completely bogus ToS is not it.

See? Not particularly conductive to discourse, is it :D

stinkbeetle17d ago

> This is a strawman and you know it.

Uh yes? And you clearly know it too. It was a bit like your McDonalds strawman.

> Please at least make an attempt to argue in good faith, otherwise there's no point.

No need to get in a huff when we obviously both know what we're talking about. It's not conducive to the discussion.

> Of course there should be a reasonable middle-ground. The current situation with completely bogus ToS is not it.

Teever17d ago

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse