The MacBook Neo (opens in new tab)

Additionally, you can’t count on the basic being correct. It takes a hour of research to know if the trackpad is not-awful, keyboard doesn’t suck, and display isn’t a 300nits POS unusable even in a bright room.

You want the same performance as a MacBook Air without one of these fatal flaws? You’ll hand to spend $1500+ anyway so you save nothing. Then the OS is full of ads and pre-installed garbage “gaming-optimization-tool” or driver tools taking up 99% of a single core while being riddled with security holes.

> Apple pulled off what I thought wasn't possible. The MacBook Neo is poised to set the budget-laptop world on fire as a $599 system that's better-built and sharper than anything else at or below its price.

https://www.pcmag.com/reviews/apple-macbook-neo

Similar to the Verge:

> even the cheapest MacBook Neo is good enough to be the go-to Apple laptop for a lot of people. Actually, not just the go-to Apple laptop; the Neo’s hardware simultaneously embarrasses an entire class of affordable (and even far pricier) Windows laptops, as well as just about any Chromebook. And the thing runs on an iPhone chip.

https://www.theverge.com/tech/891741/apple-macbook-neo-a18-p...

iPhone and iPad does not have a hardware indicator light

I would argue the opposite: while Apple hardware is generally excellent, it is the software that leaves to be desired. Apple has also been consistently pushing the industry in a dangerous direction (walled gardens with app stores, excessive power over developers and users). MacOS is also very behind Linux these days in terms of app compatibility (especially games).

I won't be buying a Neo before a compatible Linux distro is confirmed. If the stock OS can't be replaced for one reason or another, it's dead on arrival as far as I am concerned.

I've been of the firm opinion for a very long time that Macbook's are the best productivity laptops and now even more so once Apple moved from Intel to their own M chips. Their entry level Macbook before the Neo you could buy and it would be a laptop that would see you for many many years.

I can’t stand it and every update makes it worse.

Been running popos abs everything I can and it’s petty nice.

Installed it on a new LG Gram and everything works including fingerprint reader. Is my favorite laptop and my old Mac sits gathering dust,

My first laptop was a decommissioned pos office dell ultrabook. By every metrics it would've been the worst option to choose, but since it had replaceable memory I was able to push it to 16 gigs and get through my computer science degree and many side projects. Computational speed was adequate for me, I ran Linux on it. It had an Intel U series 6th gen (12th gen was latest then) i5, an NVMe ssd and was always responsive.

If I were a student in this day, and all I could find were these laptops this is what I would think. 1 they're out of budget for most students in developing countries. 2 I will most likely out grow 8 GB ram faster than my laptops CPU performance. 3 I am limited to learning with what can run on apple silicon(most Linux distros excluding asahi). Finally I end up paying basically 50-60% of the cost of a decent machine and replaced it with a disposable one.

Maybe this machine is perfect for a specific set of users, students with higher income households or degrees which need better a better quality display.

I still advise every computing student I meet to get a under $200 old used laptop that has expandable memory and atleast an NVMe ssd. That way they can maximise their time learning and experimenting. Anything that needs more complex hardware can always be offloaded into your institutes machines. Once you're settled a bit and have a decent amount of cash to burn go ahead and buy whatever maxed out MacBook your heart desires.

The Neo is such a perfect replacement and easier than fixing the Air.

No? Apple has been delivering way cheaper laptops ever since M1, this one is just even cheaper. I thought PC execs were asleep at the wheel but not this bad.

https://youtu.be/d-VOt9559Gk?si=tYlDstnaxtQWoJ88

He opens 50+ apps at once while working in Final Cut and Lightroom. Obviously anyone doing those full time would benefit from more resources but I think this is going to be enough for a big chunk of the population, and will be more appealing than the windows alternatives.

600 might seem budget, but it's out of budget for most people. And my guess is PC manufacturers will retaliate against this by cutting prices just a little to drop under that 600 price point for mid range ryzens, with more ram and space.

Any family members I've helped shop for computers only care about how much space it has, how cheap it is, and will it struggle to run things like the last one. As it sits the MacBook is more money for less gigabytes

I remember a whole slew of inexpensive netbooks and the like that were technically Windows XP or Windows 7 machines, but came with a dumbed-down "starter" OS, not enough RAM, only a 32-bit CPU in an era were 64 bits were already becoming standard - the sum of which amounted to a barely usable imitation of a real Windows machine and as a result most of these became garage sale fodder pretty quickly.

edit: also on a tangent, Apple's pricing has become weird. It actually feels like it's a really good bang got the buck. Regular iPads are under 400 now, and they're just better than the competition. MacBook Pro is about the same price as it ever was, but it's just so much better than it was etc.

However, I think that two will bring sour tastes to people’s metaphorical mouths much more than expected: the RAM and drive space.

There should have been a 16Gb option. Nosebleed the price if you have to, or include a SODIMM slot if needed, but the option should have been there to expand the memory to 16Gb either on spec or at a later date. Because each version of MacOS gets weightier and more demanding of hardware - Windows isn’t the only resource hog out there - and at 8Gb the pain will begin to be felt long before the 7-year usability cycle comes to an end.

There should have been a 1Tb option. Not because people use that much drive space - many don’t - but because 1Tb is the level which provides enough cells in parallel to properly saturate the PCIe bus, ensuring maximum performance. Not always at that 1Tb level, and not on every machine. But typically 1Tb or above, rather than below. Even if it required a hairdryer to unstick the original due to the constrained space not permitting a lock-down screw, the drive should have been either replaceable or with the size as (again) a nosebleed-price option at provisioning.

Because while I see every other compromise as acceptable, it is those two which make me hesitate on getting this as a long-term secondary/casual system.

Other than that, this is a laptop which can only goose Apple’s further adoption among students and casual users.

I’m curious to see this machine in person, but I’d bet the an iPad is still the best large device in Apple’s ecosystem for anything that benefits from viewing in portrait mode.

I don't see any way they can get out of this situation without seriously improving the UX of their products. Windows itself is likely implicated here too.

The fact that the "usb 2" port works for (fast) charging is a big win. That means you can charge and use the fast usb port at the same time.

My wife is using a fancy new air for 2500€, which is way better. But I still think of the good old MacAir times, they'll try to bring up again.

Edit / Link: https://www.macworld.com/article/2986234/walmart-m1-macbook-...

This is a daily, albeit minor, annoyance on my MacBook Air too.

Not as obvious as the author implies. Apple has some docs out, IIRC, explaining how it is implemented. Worth a read...

> "As it stands, I might buy a Neo for that same purpose, 2.7-pound weight be damned."

The wonders of the closed ecosystem / walled-garden, where you don't have to face competition on equal terms, because you already locked-in your customers...

Going to be signficiantly harder for Qualcomm X2 Elite to make a splash, given the price here. I have high hopes for the X2 Elite Extreme (even if it is going to be cursed with incredible difficulty trying to get each of these non-ACPI / DeviceTree systems running Linux). But this raises the bar signficiantly.

I wonder if the real clicks on mechanical trackpad will actually feel better than the simulated clicks on the Magic Trackpad.

MMMMMMM.....I don't know. I think the biggest shortcomings of that laptop were super common keyboard (dustgate), SSD, USB-C port, display, battery, and CPU (popcorning) failure.

IMO there is a small subset of Mac users today(gamers, local LLM users, editors, mobile devs) for which this won't be the best option

The article sums up why quite well:

"The biggest shortcoming of the decade-ago MacBook “One”, aside from the baffling decision to include just one USB-C port that was also its only means of charging, was the shitty performance of Intel’s Core M chips. Those chips were small enough and low-power enough to fit in the MacBook’s thin and fan-less enclosure, but they were slow as balls. It was a huge compromise for a laptop that carried a somewhat premium price. Today, performance, performance-per-watt, and physical chip size are all solved problems with Apple Silicon. I’d consider paying double the price of the Neo for a MacBook with similar specs (but more RAM and better I/O) that weighed 2.0 pounds or less. I’d buy such a MacBook not to replace my 14-inch MacBook Pro, but to replace my 2018 11-inch iPad Pro as my “carry around the house” secondary computer.5"

With a cheaper Windows alternative to the MacBook Neo, your options are inferior battery life with AMD 64, or Windows Arm’s inferior compatibility.

I doubt Microsoft is holding developers hands when transitioning to Arm the way that Apple does. Not to mention they’ve been using their own chips.

I wonder how much of the Neo pricing wow factor is Apple taking advantage of the strong dollar vs much else that's changed on the ground (obv the processor pick is a "real thing")

Honestly, I have a hard time typing on a new Apple laptop; it doesn't feel right until the keycaps are a bit worn.

Incomprehensible how much time and effort people spend on something which takes no more than a few minutes.

One other thing, how repairable is this thing going to be? I'm guessing it's going to end up with an extremely low repairability score, considering they seem to solder both RAM and storage these days. Looking at the MacBook Pro (repairability score 4/10) it seems crazy difficult even to swap the battery: https://www.ifixit.com/Guide/MacBook+Pro+14-Inch+Late+2023+(...

When we buy them personal laptops (not there yet), it'll be a MacBook Neo (or its successor). I expect that unless they're forced to at work, they'll never touch a Windows computer in their life.

But it cannot be done because it only allows AppStore content with a 30% cut for Apple.

Technically it's not challenging as you can see with this new MacBook.

I bought my parents Asus laptops years ago, and can't wait to replace them with a Neo.

Microsoft has spurned and scorned users. Now it's time for computer makers to push back and reject its shit. I'd love to see a consortium of computer makers come together to refine a Linux distro that's consumer-friendly enough to oust Windows and compete with Mac OS.

So far I think the only thing I can add to the conversation about it is the only real disappointment is that the only upgrade option is to go to 512G w/ touch ID for $100. That's not to say the 8 GB option was bad by any means, it actually works even better than I was expecting, but it still leaves a big gap on the way up to the base model Air at $1100 and the splash could have been twice as large.

This is fine, and actually a brilliant business move to monetize inventory investment that is otherwise sunk while releasing a new product that doesn't require them to fight for fab capacity.

It's just not something I'm seeing in the consumer discourse that, perhaps, people might like to understand.

A12Z is really M0 (or you could say M1 is A14X or A14Z depending on GPU bin), so I would not characterize it as "(iPhone) A-series."

I worked in retail for a decade, a lot of that was selling computers. The vast majority of what people buy computers for could be done a toaster. You don't exactly need top end specs to browse the internet, reply to emails, and write the occasional document.

I want to do more travel and photography, with occasional light work on my own project. And this feels like better option than iPad, because i can use Xcode and android Studio. And for +- the same price.

Too bad that performance is (still) locked in the walled garden and cannot be used as a small Linux server.

I think a lot of us wish that! I'm struggling to pick either the Neo or the new iPad Air 13", the former for having MacOS, or the latter for light weight and light usage purposes. And come this fall pair whichever choice with an M5 mini at home.

This is the kind of reasoning behind why I can not take any Apple product review seriously, or any Apple fan seriously.

I was surprised that a guy who shills Apple for a living still uses a 5 year old MacBook. It goes to show how the longevity of laptops has increased over time. I'm also on a M1 Macbook and find it hard to justify an upgrade.

So, Gruber, you're telling me that you didn't have a laptop before because of the price and you had to settle for an iPad?

Damned if i ever noticed, and all my laptops since like 2013 have been Apple.

I knew I had it on one of my previous iPhones but there it was an annoyance because I never knew what was going to happen on a touch.

You don’t have to if the software you need needs Windows.

Interesting metrics, though I'd add that if you count storage and memory as metrics, it'd be hard to find a worse PC laptop. And I don't see why we should artificially exclude ARM PC laptops from the comparison.

https://www.bestbuy.com/product/asus-vivobook-14-wuxga-lapto...

2x the RAM and 2x the storage isn't meaningless to a lot of people.

The PC has a single-core geekbench around 2100 single / 10,000 multicore. The Neo is apparently in the range of 3600 / 9,000 multicore.

No arguments on the Mac's screen being way nicer though. However, the low-end computer market - unlike most of us on HN - has never cared about pixel density, color accuracy, or really any screen specs other than size (Looks like the Asus has the Mac by an inch on that spec).

Bottom line, for a high-end Chromebook replacement (literally everything is done in the cloud, so storage doesn't matter, and only running a browser, so RAM isn't a big deal), as long as it's for someone who will take care of such a delicate device, the Neo is pretty great. For everyone else, it's debatable.

> And certainly not software quality.

This is most definitely only a little true in that Windows has jumped the shark lately with ads and various enshittification, and thus ties with Mac OS. Tahoe is without a doubt the worst Mac OS ever released. It's both poor quality and poorly designed.

But that's very wishful thinking.

> I am in no way arguing that the MacBook Neo is an iPad killer, but it’s a splendid iPad alternative for people like me, who don’t draw with a Pencil, do type with a keyboard, and just want a small, simple, highly portable and highly capable computer to use around the house.

My wife and I prefer iPads around the house as she is a pencil centric artist and loosely speaking I prefer touch to keyboards. But his framing points out Apple is expansively addressing broad market work/school/home computing needs/preferences and thus also brings up a question I think is under discussed...

What is Apple's user experience roadmap for Apple TV mass market home computing? And for home computing in general?

We are overdue for a leap up there, where Apple, as with the Neo, exploits their ability to profitably deliver higher end hardware which enables features at prices below any comparable competition.

I know folks are fond of pointing to Apple struggling to deliver Siri/AI advances but I view that like their Apple Maps fiasco: an ongoing priority roadmap that they will keep working at until it is better than good enough.

I believe Apple will soon accelerate the power ramp up in Apple TV both because they could now ~ Neo that device into very $/performance competitive vs game consoles but also because they likely predict an ever increasing demand for home compute by consumers.

Not just speech i/o and AI conversation but also active realtime cheap private application of compute, such as personalizing your sports game feed, for example:

a) continually show me where the ball is by [dynamic method] b) rewind to when player X had the ball c) freeze there and show me what might have happened if they had passed to Y d) dress all the players in tutus e) change to my cooking show but warp me back to this game if someone scores f) etc etc etc.

Their 5+ year planning and commitment to the Apple Watch and Vision Pro show that they are ardent bettors on personal computing continuing to evolve very rapidly if they can concoct a profitable multi-year course from niche to ubiquitous. [not just for a product but for their synergistic products]

Remember they build elaborate fake homes as test centers, and not just to film product promos. I would be very surprised to learn their current 5 year outlook ignores robotics. Look around the edges of their public activities and imagine how what you notice might also fit together with something new but hidden.

They are ambitious. Very Ambitious. What's next?

Want to edit some raw video into a polished 20 minute video suitable for youtube? You don't open final cut pro, you tell your thin client to edit the raw video into a polished 20 minute video. Your monthly subscription includes AI and out pops an edited video.

PCI slots are from the 90s. DIMM from the 90s. SATA from the early 00s. LGA sockets from the mid 00s.

"I wish Apple would make a MacBook that’s akin to the iPhone Air — crazy thin and surprisingly performant."

What this reflects is all those comments and users, myself included, over the years saying "I would get an iPad if only it could run MacOS", and the ensuing discussion to the effect of why Apple won't do it, the chips are just as powerful, etc. A tablet Mac is a lot of people's (both casual and tech) holy grail in portable computing, justified/sensible or not in terms of technology and UI form factor. Gruber's wish is precisely the expression of this not unpopular sentiment. And also the Tahoe iPad OS features is a clue that Apple knows this.

I’m not the target market since I require Linux compatibility but I realize that is not a necessity in the market.

Yup

“MacBook Neo is built on an iPhone chip—the A18 Pro. It’s far less capable of running intensive tasks than any of Apple’s M‑series chips or any moderately powered Intel or AMD processor.”

and that:

“It’s merely the right kind of performance for anybody who wants to browse the internet or stream video.”

...at this price point there are plenty of alternatives for laptops with better performance and specs.

For example, you can get a 15.6" Ryzen 7 5700U laptop with 32GB RAM and a 1TB SSD for less than the “unbeatable” price of the Neo:

https://www.amazon.com/NIAKUN-Computer-Processor-Graphics-Ke...

Or a 15.6" Intel Core i7‑1255U/12650H laptop with 16GB RAM and a 1TB SSD in a similar price range:

https://www.amazon.com/HP-Laptop-High-Performance-i7-1255U-4...

Both of these offer:

* A more traditional laptop CPU

* 2–4× the memory

* 2-4× the storage (1TB vs 256GB base on the Neo)

Standard HDMI/USB‑C video out for external displays

So I can definitely see the appeal of the Neo for people who just want an inexpensive way into macOS, but the claim that “no other budget laptop can compete.” doesn't track.

Maybe it should have been "The least expensive Macbook yet, but that comes with significant downsides."

I dream of the day I can kick windows into the next bin, but this is the one thing that the Neo fails hard on, all other compromises would've made this a great remote dev machine.

I can get ThinkPad E14 with a decent lunar lake CPU and 16 gigabytes of memory, at a slightly lower price.

So I'm not as hyped as others...

The best selling Macbook in history, as percentage of total MacBook sold is the 11" $899 MacBook Air. That was when Apple learned people are willing to give up on performance and features just to get a Mac, or just to use OSX.

And despite the declining state of macOS, as Gruber said it is still zillions times better than Windows.

Apple Mac has always been more expensive than PC. But they are also better built. No Laptop has decent trackpad until M$ pull R&D into their surface book. PC Speaker was appalling until YouTuber start to state the obvious how MacBook speakers were better. But none of these matters, at the end of the day most consumer dont understand spec. They see that is the cheapest MacBook, it looks good and works, just like the MacBook Air 11", if they could afford to buy a $500 laptop, they will spend extra $100 on Apple. Even if the spec on paper is arguably worse.

And if we are really talking about spec and compare. If you even want some after sales services, you would at least have to look at Dell, HP or ASUS. And not some random Chinese brand.

These 1920 * 1080 15" screen is not a decent screen. Even ignoring P3 colour, you will have to find a screen with 200PPI+, let alone Apple do it with 220PPI.

If you want to use Amazon as comparison, they have been selling M4 MacBook Air at $200 discount sometimes $250 for most of the time. I have no idea why, but I would not be surprised the $699 model be selling at $599, same as EDU price. Then at this point the MacBook Neo is extremely competitively priced. You get better screen, faster CPU for less storage and less ram.

And let's fast forward a year. A Neo with A19 Pro as used in iPhone 17 Air and Pro with 12GB RAM, Double the SSD Speed. WiFI 7. Assuming that is true, I dont even see anything on the PC roadmap that is competitive, especially when they are all facing DRAM pricing pressure. ( Although I also think Apple will bump A19 Pro version by additional $100 )

Forgetting all that for a second, not a single review look into the actual Neo hardware. We will have to wait for iFixit for detail teardown. But is should be the easiest to fix Mac, and designed to be simple to manufacture as they said in the interview. The chassis is likely heavier due to this process but could see further refinement. The mechanical trackpad is work of genius, I am not sure if this is Apple only innovation or something that is on the market already. That trackpad alone is 150g, that is nearly one tenth of the weight of whole Neo.

The Neo is, as far as I am aware perhaps the first Apple product that was designed and engineered to be as practical and cost effective as possible. True to their words this isn't some cost reduction exercise using old design and components. This makes Neo the most boring Apple product on paper, but sometimes boring is good. And I agree with MKBHD, this is perhaps the most disruptive Apple product since the original iPhone.

There are roughly 1.5 - 2 billions Windows PC in use today. And Apple has at best 150 to 200M Mac user. So there is plenty of room to grow. I would be happy if they could double that in 5 years time.

I am really liking everything this New Apple is coming through so far. Molly Anderson as Industrial Engineer. John Ternus on Hardware Engineering. Not sure if Steve Lemay is great but my gut feeling is he would restore a lot of Apple HID.

The only thing missing is software ( And may be Services lead ). I know Craig Federighi is popular on HN and internet but I haven't liked a single software engineering direction since he took charge. Stop adding features and Resume driven development and start fixing bugs.

May be lastly, Tim Cook has never been any good at picking person. But all these new selection seems to be great. This cant be a coincidence. I am wondering if there are some additional changes in the background at Apple we dont see.

I have been giving Tim Cook's Apple plenty benefits of doubt but losing faith steadily for 10 years. This is the first time ever since Steve Jobs passed away I am excited to see changes in direction. The name Neo is just great. Truly something new.

nb I haven’t delved too deep into RISCV but I am under a general impression it did away with all this. My concern is the layers that are added will turn it into a CISCV over time.

nudge/"help" people to join the party?

trying to ride something around the windows-bullshitization , recent memory-prices etc..

He was referring to the supply chain. The shock is that Apple was able to build something like this with current component costs.

My old x86 "PC" laptop with the $0 Debian certainly compares positively to Apple in terms of software quality.

It's really cool that this device is cheap but 8GB of RAM is the elephant in the room. Even non-technical web browsing users will notice the sluggishness coming from that spec.

The moment they upgrade it to the next iPhone processor, it'll get 12GB of RAM, and it will need it.

And the other elephant in the room that John doesn't bring up is the fact that you can definitely find in-warranty MacBook Air options for ~$700 and they'll be much better buys.

You'll get more RAM, keep your Touch ID, better trackpad, better screen, better battery life, better speakers, better mics, I think even a better webcam? Maybe.

That reminds me: the small battery in the Neo means that high screen brightness or more than light usage will more quickly deplete it compared to other Mac systems.