undefined | Better HN

0 pointsoefrha1d ago0 comments

Go to any top STEM PhD program and do a headcount. I don’t know what’s going on now thanks to this wave of xenophobia and funding cut madness, but back when I was in one (Princeton Physics, that was last decade), everywhere I go it was at least 50-50 in terms of international representation. You can also count the massive number of clearly foreign born faculty. It could not be more obvious.

Edit: And before you mention O-1 and friends for highly accomplished individuals (maybe that's not affected for now? Honestly have no idea), this kind of policy has wide ranging second order effects even if it doesn't affect top talent directly. Like I said I was U.S. educated myself, once I would encourage bright minds from elsewhere to pursue a higher education in the U.S., now I heavily advise them from even setting foot in the U.S.

0 comments

dnautics1d ago

> Go to any top STEM PhD program and do a headcount

Having done a STEM PhD, No. STEM PhDs are merely easily exploited labor by STEM departments. The PhDs and postdocs from foreign countries are typically a notch lower than the US PhDs and postdocs (especially the postdocs, because in many foreign countries you can do a 3 year PhD). It's just that most americans won't accept 100 hour workweeks in exchange for a $50k paycheck, and won't falsify the science to stay in pursuit of the next rung on the academic ladder.

JuniperMesos23h ago

But foreign PhD students and postdocs who are being paid partially in the legal right to reside in the US might well be willing to accept those conditions. Just as an H1B visa tech employee is willing to accept lower wages and less freedom to challenge their employer, or an illegal immigrant farm laborer is willing to accept those working conditions in return for not being in whatever country they illegally immigrated from.

Any justification at all for the US government to give a visa to someone - including student visas, including visas for postdocs doing ostensible research - will be gamed by people whose primary concern is access to the US. Demand for access to the US among the myriad peoples of the world is that strong.

oefrhaOP1d ago

Sounds like the bitter words of someone who got pushed out. I know the type, I’m no longer an academic myself. Sorry it didn’t work out for you, not sorry to claim that the overwhelming majority of the most important advancements are still made by people with PhDs, however many unsuccessful ones there are.

dnautics1d ago

I did fine for myself. You're crazy or brainwashed if you don't think there's something wrong going on in the academe. I have long conversations with my friend (who is a professor at ASU) about it, I don't think he's blowing smoke up my ass.

oefrhaOP1d ago

I think there’s something very wrong with every single walk of society, and academia’s problems are far from the most grave. If I’m given the choice again, I take a rotten academia over fucking ad machines and quants that do no good / actively do harm in this world (both industries try to hire me and the likes of me) every time, even when I know I’m gonna leave at the end.

1 more reply

Der_Einzige1d ago

Most of these anti immigrant takes are ultimately sour grapes from people who were often rightfully left behind or economically downlifted by their lack of willingness to adapt to the changing world we are in.

Most of these who think that wasp Americans are harmed by high skilled immigrants are admitting that they can’t beat them. Pathetic slave morality which is life denying and ontologically damnable.

dnautics22h ago

I'm not a wasp American. I'm a scientist that wanted to publish real science. And yes. I was not good enough beat cheats and frauds.

Der_Einzige1d ago

You’re full of shit. White American Ph.ds are on average a tier below foreign born ones. I just hired an intern based on AI research academic credentials and out of well over 300 applications I got 3 whole American citizens and they weren’t even in the top 10 in quality.

This is why most ivy Ph.d holders are some kind of Asian. Peter and Paul really are dumber than the alternative on average.

dnautics1d ago

I saw seven cases of outright fraud by postdocs/grad students while I was in grad school, they were perpetrated by:

Chinese, Chinese, Greek, Canadian, Chinese, Chinese, German

They were called out by:

American, Indian, American, Polish, American, American, American.

Respectively

blowscum1d ago

> Go to any top STEM PhD program and do a headcount.

Intelligent Americans rarely go through the hazing ritual that is a PhD because its financially stupid unless you’re rich.

oefrhaOP1d ago

If you mean “intelligent” Americans who work on fucking blood sucking ad tech or garbage financial engineering rather than pushing the boundaries of science and technology, sure.

fooker1d ago

It’s not that far in the future that you’ll start seeing quite a few ‘intelligent Americans’ in European and Chinese PhD programs :)

lurk21d ago

The flow of students between China and the USA is effectively unidirectional and always has been. What insight do you have to suggest that this will change in the near future?

bluecheese4521d ago

Why would an American smart enough to become a stem phd toil away for a decade in poverty under an abusive university system instead of becoming rich in tech?

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

0 comments

dnautics1d ago

> Go to any top STEM PhD program and do a headcount

JuniperMesos23h ago

oefrhaOP1d ago

dnautics1d ago

oefrhaOP1d ago

1 more reply

Der_Einzige1d ago

Most of these who think that wasp Americans are harmed by high skilled immigrants are admitting that they can’t beat them. Pathetic slave morality which is life denying and ontologically damnable.

dnautics22h ago

I'm not a wasp American. I'm a scientist that wanted to publish real science. And yes. I was not good enough beat cheats and frauds.

Der_Einzige1d ago

This is why most ivy Ph.d holders are some kind of Asian. Peter and Paul really are dumber than the alternative on average.

dnautics1d ago

I saw seven cases of outright fraud by postdocs/grad students while I was in grad school, they were perpetrated by:

Chinese, Chinese, Greek, Canadian, Chinese, Chinese, German

They were called out by:

American, Indian, American, Polish, American, American, American.

Respectively

blowscum1d ago

> Go to any top STEM PhD program and do a headcount.

Intelligent Americans rarely go through the hazing ritual that is a PhD because its financially stupid unless you’re rich.

oefrhaOP1d ago

If you mean “intelligent” Americans who work on fucking blood sucking ad tech or garbage financial engineering rather than pushing the boundaries of science and technology, sure.

fooker1d ago

It’s not that far in the future that you’ll start seeing quite a few ‘intelligent Americans’ in European and Chinese PhD programs :)

lurk21d ago

The flow of students between China and the USA is effectively unidirectional and always has been. What insight do you have to suggest that this will change in the near future?

bluecheese4521d ago

Why would an American smart enough to become a stem phd toil away for a decade in poverty under an abusive university system instead of becoming rich in tech?

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse