I've also extensively used Zope and Plone, which attempt to give designers a "safe" set of capabilities and subset of Python which was a total disaster. Template DSLs always end up trying to regrow programming language features, much usually worse then the languages they are implemented in.

Zope is particularly illustrative because it recursively accumulated: TAL, METAL, TALES, RestrictedPython, and DTML: all to avoid "just use Python templates". (And don't even get me started on all the layers CMF and Plone introduced!)

This happened with Smarty, Zope Page Templates (ZPT), TAL/METAL, RestrictedPython, Django templates, Helm templates, Jenkins pipelines, GitHub Actions YAML, Terraform HCL, and countless other attempts to create a "safe non-programmer-friendly mini-language" that eventually mutates into a worse programming language, often with horribly leaky abstraction layers of \escaping and &lt; perfect syntax and <![CDATA[ cruft.

I Wanna Be <![CDATA[ (Sung to the tune of "I Wanna Be Sedated", with apologies to The Ramones):

https://donhopkins.medium.com/i-wanna-be-cdata-3406e14d4f21

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=32886424

This attitude causes disasters like PHP's "Smarty" templating language.

PHP was already a templating language, but somebody got it in their head that there should be an iron-clad separation between designers and programmers, and that PHP gave designers too much power and confused them, and that their incompetent untrustworthy designers who refused to learn anything about programming deserved something even "simpler" than PHP, so they came up with Smarty.

Then over time the realized that their designers were powerless, so their programmers would have to learn TWO languages so they could wade into the Smarty templates to make them actually work with all the extra code they had to write because Smarty was so crippled, so they nickle-and-dimed more and more incoherent programming language elements into Smarty, making it EVEN HARDER to use and more complicated and less consistent than PHP, yet nowhere near as powerful.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20736574

DonHopkins on Aug 19, 2019 | parent | context | favorite | on: YAML: Probably not so great after all

One of the most ridiculous examples of this was the Smarty templating language for PHP.

Somebody got the silly idea in their head of implementing a templating language in PHP, even though PHP is ALREADY a templating language. So they took out all the useful features of PHP, then stuck a few of them back in with even goofier inconsistent hard-to-learn syntax, in a way that required a code generation step, and made templates absolutely impossible to debug.

So in the end your template programmers need to know something just as difficult as PHP itself, yet even more esoteric and less well documented, and it doesn't even end up saving PHP programmers any time, either.

https://web.archive.org/web/20100226023855/http://lutt.se/bl...

>Bad things you accomplish when using Smarty:

>Adding a second language to program in, and increasing the complexity. And the language is not well spread at all, allthough it is’nt hard to learn.

>Not really making the code more readable for the designer.

>You include a lot of code which, in my eyes, is just overkill (more code to parse means slower sites).

https://web.archive.org/web/20090227001433/http://www.rantin...

>Most people would argue, that Smarty is a good solution for templating. I really can’t see any valid reasons, that that is so. Specially since “Templating” and “Language” should never be in the same statement. Let alone one word after another. People are telling me, that Smarty is “better for designers, since they don’t need to learn PHP!”. Wait. What? You’re not learning one programming language, but you’re learning some other? What’s the point in that, anyway? Do us all a favour, and just think the next time you issue that statement, okay?

http://www.ianbicking.org/php-ghetto.html

>I think the Broken Windows theory applies here. PHP is such a load of crap, right down to the standard library, that it creates a culture where it's acceptable to write horrible code. The bugs and security holes are so common, it doesn't seem so important to keep everything in order and audited. Fixes get applied wholesale, with monstrosities like magic quotes. It's like a shoot-first-ask-questions-later policing policy -- sure some apps get messed up, but maybe you catch a few attacks in the process. It's what happened when the language designers gave up. Maybe with PHP 5 they are trying to clean up the neighborhood, but that doesn't change the fact when you program in PHP you are programming in a dump.

https://blog.codinghorror.com/the-php-singularity/

https://web.archive.org/web/20120711143431/http://me.veekun....