Do I prefer to be alone/ in a small group most of the time? Hell yes! It's more exclusive and I get more work done. In a social situation, less people means more signal, less noise.
Do I sometimes completely avoid social situations? Of course! But it's solely due to the fact that sometimes, I just can't be arsed to care about dealing with someones trite problems.
When push comes to shove and I need to be social with large groups, there isn't an issue aside from the usual inherent "stage fright", but this is a quality that can affect anyone that doesn't spend the majority of their time as a public speaker.
Some of us exhibit the "qualities" in the article purely by choice, not by challenge. I'm pretty sure at some point in my youth, some poor misguided soul tried to diagnose me with some placement on the spectrum, but I would say that nowadays this incorrect classification is more common than not. Had someone told me every day that I was an autist, maybe I would have ended up exhibiting more of those behaviors simply by association. Maybe we should make a slight effort to stop telling schoolchildren that they're special or different, and more time letting people fend for themselves a bit first.
There is a spectrum of behaviors, raging from healthy to problematic.
Drinking alcohol has a range too: from abstaining to enjoying in moderation to alcoholism. Neither abstaining nor moderate enjoyment are problematic. While the parallel is awkward, just as occasionally having one beer too many doesn't constitute alcoholism, occasionally avoiding social situations is different from always avoiding them (the reasons for avoiding them are important too!).
If you don't understand the criteria for determining when a behavior is problematic enough to warrant a symptom and when it is not, and you read through the DSM-IV (which defines mental disorders), you will think you qualify for many of the disorders listed: in all likelihood you do not qualify for any of them. Why are the definitions written this way? Because mental disorders are often characterized by normal behaviors happening to an extreme degree (being anxious before a big potentially career-altering presentation is healthy, having panic attacks as a result of everyday situations is problematic). Also because the DSM-IV is meant to be used by trained professionals who already understand this distinction.
As much as it's a very humanly thing to do, I think it's ridiculous to try to lump people into categories, especially when the differences are so minute that it's almost as if there's one way that people should be, and if someone doesn't fit that mold exactly, they must be classified as different. This leads to unnecessary (and unintentional) segregation and gives common folk more reason to disproportionately view and treat certain individuals differently.
Just like every other medical and mental disorder, just because you have some of the symptoms doesn't mean that you have the actual condition. Jeff Foxworthy has a great joke about this - seeing a program on a disease, his wife says "I have everyone of these symptoms! I've got it..." To which he responds "No, you do not have testicular cancer!"
If you don't have aspergers, great! I'm happy for you; there are many things about being NT that I wish I had as well. But at the same time, don't classify aspergers as not being a real problem just because you share some symptoms without the underlying cause.
The point that the parent was getting at was that our entire diagnostic process is to measure the symptoms. This is the case for almost all disorders of the brain, and it makes your Jeff Foxworthy quote especially interesting - if the only way that we can determine whether someone has a given condition is self reporting, then what's to say she doesn't? Everyone has a brain.
I think that people who beat this drum are missing an important point - it doesn't matter whether or not someone who doesn't need special treatment or attention has the underlying disorder - by definition, they don't. Brain disorders don't become brain disorders until they have an impact on your life or the lives of the people around you. This is spelled out plainly in the DSM. Even if you have exactly the same chemical condition as someone with Aspergers, unless your life can be improved by treatment, you don't have it. This will continue to be the case until we know for sure what's going on. It's impossible to know how someone else experiences pain, as well, but that doesn't make their suffering less valid.
On the other hand, if you are high-functioning enough for the advice in the article to not apply to you, I would also hope that you are high-functioning enough to tell your manager(s) and co-workers what accommodations you do and don't need.
I am in no way special or helped by my syndrome, I am not difficult to work with, I am not in any way disabled, like normal people I have issues with emotional repression and other peoples point of view, but that being said I am human, first and foremost.
No one (outside of medical and psychological circles) except my girlfriend, mum and best friend know I have Aspbergers, my differences are just a part of my personality.
I'm curious, what led you (or your guardians?) to seek out a diagnosis?
Some do. Some people have more severe symptoms; I read an autobiography by an author with Aspergers where she describes being completely overwhelmed by loud noises or too much visual input. And when some schoolyard bullies told her that "We're going to beat you up every day", she accepted it as another rule among many incomprehensible school regulations, and actually went and reminded them if they forgot to beat her up.
Here's one well-known example: http://gawker.com/5885196/the-tech-industrys-asperger-proble...
The link between Aspergers and the infuriating (and abusive) behavior of certain tech companies seems extremely plausible.
Having Aspergers does not make someone an innocent victim, especially if they yield considerable power. People don't dislike Zuckerberg for having Asperger's, they dislike him for his behavior and policies.
As another 'Sperg, I can't help but think you're overreacting. Sure, the article was a tad patronizing at times, but the overall tone was positive. It's not a problem that it was a bit of a "puff piece", as you said, because it'll help people perceive us in a more positive light.
> My diagnosis is not obvious to anyone talking to me unless I were to disclose it
I grew up without a clue about Asperger's or having it. It just wasn't known back then, so I operated under the assumption of being just an ordinary (or "normal") person, and despite some quirks, even pulled off the role.
But immediately upon reading about Asperger's, my sister recognized the characteristics in me. The point is that someone who knows the "symptoms", may well recognize them in you. It may even be obvious.
> I don't want Aspberger's to define me
It doesn't, but it inevitably does to an extent. You probably display most of the characteristics, but at least some of them are under your control. For example, sometimes you'll want to "fit in", so you'll refrain from being as blunt as you'd like to.
Maybe Asperger's is just a personality trait. Maybe it's just not putting up with other's people crap. There are days I would be diagnosed as having Asperger's, for sure.
He did a few jobs during school and a buddy of mine worked with him at a software development shop. He said that they put him (my co-student with Asperger's), in an office by himself with a computer and a desk phone and gave him assignments of things to code. His code was awesome, but whenever he wanted to ask someone about a project he was working on, people rarely answered him. Being the genius that he was, he figured out how to hack his office phone to be able to transmit his voice through every office speaker in the entire office without anyone having to pick up their phone. They quickly started answering him more.
So my $.02 are the same with working with any individual - understand who they are, what they care about, and give them what they need. My co-student with Asperger's was a total genius in CS (actually he was a CE double major now that I think of it), but ultimately had trouble getting people to just listen to him.
How about asking "Will/do you hire someone who is good for the job?". The question asked here though is more along the lines of "Will/do discriminate in your hiring process and how much?"
Furthermore the article is pretty biased, for example: "Aspies are intelligent -- and independent".
I have met dumb 'aspies'. I don't know about figures, but I would argue that there are both dumb and intelligent 'aspies'.
...
> How about asking "Will/do you hire someone who is good for the job?". The question asked here though is more along the lines of "Will/do discriminate in your hiring process and how much?"
I don't disagree with you, but I think it's important to realize that this article is written to address and correct some common human biases. People whose moral development exceeds a certain level are less likely to subconsciously classify and stereotype people based on a handful of social cues, but are more likely to evaluate people as individuals. This article is not written for such people. It is written for people whose moral model of a person is so simple as to equate "autistic" with "dysfunctional" and ignore the individual characteristics of a person.
It may be offensive or arrogant to discuss autistic spectrum individuals in this way, but it's also necessary because most people are simply going to stereotype and dismiss them unless they're prompted to think more thoroughly about the issue. Decades in the future, when humanity's collective moral reasoning has hopefully progressed, we will be able to look back on articles like this and marvel at how simpleminded people were at the time. But articles like this are a necessary step to getting there.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/12/04/aspergers-syndrome-to-be-...
Meanwhile, your conclusion doesn't seem to fit with the text of the article you linked.
You say:
> Asperger's syndrome will be removed from DSM-5 next month.
> So next month, the person won't have the syndrome anymore...
> The syndrome won't even exist anymore...
> DSM-V, will come out in May and Asperger’s will be
> notably absent, replaced with the broader definition
> of “autism spectrum disorder.” Previously, Asperger’s
> was thought to be a milder form of autism.
Of course, I concede to the prevailing stance of people more experienced in and affected by this decision.
> As a manager, you should understand how to handle the unique opportunities and challenges that come with hiring an Aspie.
Wait, what? This is weird. Now tell us what it's like employing Jews.
I generally agree with the intent of the article but it comes over a bit "Oh the proud and noble Aspie".
> They will never accept "no" for an answer without being told the reason for it.
That's probably true, but some people with Asperger's will have given up on asking why, knowing that sometimes people use stupid incomprehensible bizarre sub-optimal reasons. When someone tells me no I tend to just accept it, because I know that asking why leads to a rabbit-hole of bitter argument and disappointment.
I sound overly critical of the article. I don't mean to. Oh well.
The criteria seems to be that one has a terrible personality, is simultaneously high-maintenance and inconsiderate of others, thinks very highly of one's self, but lacks any other connection with the autism spectrum.
Secondly, people forget that autism, as a spectrum, is being studied further and further and as such, we are finding more reason to believe that it actually does affect a lot of people -- not necessarily that it is grossly misdiagnosed. Furthermore, the number of doctors knowledgeable enough in diagnosing someone at any range of the spectrum is low. As we learn more about it, we are seeing people their 20s, 30s, some even well into their 50s and 60s finally being diagnosed because they were able to adapt well-enough that it seemed nothing was wrong on the outset.
Similarly, females on the spectrum are also often misdiagnosed with anxiety, depression or eating disorders because of how it affects them, and therefore we think that autism primarily affects men even though that may not be the case at all. Society tends to prime girls at a young age to be more sociable (but doesn't frown upon them being shy either), so they are often able hide under the radar, but continue to suffer in other ways. I'm on the spectrum myself, and I've had doctors laugh at me for wanting to be tested because "I 'look' and 'act' 'normal'," to them, which is incredibly insulting. Additionally, those that are trained to detect autism are often pediatricians, not general practitioners that aren't taking into consideration the adult patient's learned-skills over time. This is often what leads people to try to figure out what is wrong with them through other means, and I don't think we should be going around telling other people who they are and aren't. There will always be hypochondriacs, but this is one of those situations where I feel like we should try to take people seriously before we write them off entirely.
So thanks for the armchair neuropsychology, but nobody needs it; we still have a lot to learn.
Speaking of self-diagnosis ...
It has negative connotations to some, but if you are precise in the way you define the term, it can be a source of pride.
The meaning and intent matters, not the phrase.
Extremely uncomfortable in crowds/parties (actually, I pretty much refuse to attend parties at all), always looking at something else when speaking to someone 1 on 1, "rambling" when describing something or telling a story when someone else would only take 1~2 sentences, speaking my mind and a tendency to avoid small talk, and sensitive in terms of how I react to something (I tend to over-analyze and find a reason for everything that involves me).
That being said, does anyone know how accurate his list is?
I can rattle off a list of problems that short people have (trouble reaching things, inability to chase down a bus, etc), and realize that I am short, so I have to make extra effort in some parts of life to cope with that. (And in some areas of life my particular height is an advantage.)
Just something to keep in mind before you answer the question in the title!
First, language is a barrier. Social awkwardness naturally follows that barrier. Trained social reflexes and loosely coupled connections and relationships. From an industry perspective, computer specialists seem to form a deeper relationship and bonds with the logical machine.
Social skills are a technical trait that can be trained... 'why are you looking at me while I use the urinal?' In my experience, these children live on rules, and the rules define them as an adult. Computers are rule based too.
Zoning, stimming, and hyperfocusing seem to be common characteristics in the spectrum. Countless hours spinning objects, humming notes, doing routines, slightly ocd to an extent. Much like the caffeinated nights at the terminal for endless hours.
Multitasking as an obvious detour from an objective. Focus on a, achieve a, move on to b. Multitasking skills are found in the ADHD varieties, but interestingly, my observation has been a determined rigorous approach to solve solutions. Tinker until it is done. Modify. Read the rules manual word for word XOR ignore it completely. We see this behavior in our field.
Egos and emotions. Nothing more to say.
And I too have Asperger's syndrome. I have never been formally diagnosed with testing, partly because it was unheard of in my time. I visited a psych last year and she was shocked that my symptoms had not been tied to the spectrum. Yet, I am a trained individual, hyperfocusing my way to my goals and have been without guidance. My main issues stem from processing/speaking language. I am strong willed, persistent, introverted, curious, clever, quirky, and shy. I've self medicated my Asperger's and ADD with depression and anxiety... ruining my social reflection to the world.
The computer is my relationship. It is my mind, body, and soul. If something goes wrong, it is either my fault, someone's fault, or fixable. No quirky social rules to interpret and apply to the problem. Phone conferences in the phreaking days and IRC had my friends for the longest time.
The question 'is will/do you hire someone with Asperger's syndrome?', and the answer is: 'if they are qualified.'
Some of you will be parents soon. If you see the signs, get your children enrolled in a speech therapy program.
Peak their interests with gears (KNEX), LEDs and motors and batteries, circular/cylindrical objects, simple math/chemistry in the home.
The sooner the rules begin to form, the less the fear applies, grabs hold, and ruins the experience. Warn them about the quadratic equation, Bayes', matrices... years in advance. Eradicate the fear, spawn the curiosity.
I think this goes out to all parents. If your kid does not enjoy the things you want to do with them, set aside time and do some of the things they want to do. You're investing in a lifelong relationship. Years will pass and that opportunity will not come back.
The only reason these programs aren't swamped with participants is because of the feared stigma and actually coming to grips with your child's differences.
[1] http://www.php.com/services/early-intervention-infants-toddl...
In this way, having Asperger's is kind of like the opposite of being a drama queen. This is not to say that people with Asperger's are always emotionally appropriate or easy to get along with. What I mean is that some people love emotional chaos because they deal with emotion very well and always seem to come out on top in emotional confrontations. They relish the chance to stir up chaos because to them it's another chance to put their skills on display and come out ahead. Aspies are not like that at all; when they get into an uncomfortable confrontation, it's a mistake, and they don't enjoy it. People who deal poorly with emotion go around fixing things and (some) people who thrive on it go around breaking things. Sounds like a good reason to hire Aspies to me.
I think 'normal' people do this too. They just have an easier time of convincing themselves of abstract concepts like love, remorse, etc. Looking at myself, I have very primal emotions and filters. There is much self-interest, but I through repetition I have learned to take others into account. This is due to 'others' being a crucial part of what I consider my identity. Without their language (body, verbal), which I cannot fully utilize/process, I could not exist.
I call it my absurd void philosophy. Given that I was placed in a void, stripped of light, sound, floating around aimlessly... I would lose my identity. Without others, there is no me. If I do not take others into consideration, they will not take me into consideration and I would lose my identity. This is the root cause of my social interactions other than habit.
How does this play in the workplace? I make mistakes, and I bust my arse to not let the behavior happen again. I utilize the experience to warn others of my shortcomings.
As a generous Southern man once said to me, "Jonathan, some people just want a Thank You letter as gratitude instead of an email or phone call." To which I replied, "gratitude, on any medium, is still gratitude, this is a difference of culture, but to disregard my sentiment is to deny my humanity, not just my culture."
I strive to be concrete and universal, because no one does it for me.
The types of people who get themselves into building new computer systems tend to meet the deadlines but what they build is full of bugs. The aspies, i.e. maintenance programmers, then spend years afterwards fixing the system based on issues raised by the unit testers, i.e. live users of the system.
I sometimes wonder whether the human species would be better off if everyone had a strong case of what we call Asperger's.
So many tribal/cultural conflicts arise because of people's ability to connect strongly... Consider religious zealoutry and jihad, and other culturally-derived sources of conflict.
Our ability and willingness to be led (at a scope unique in the animal kingdom) has been a great organizing force in human history; but it has also been very destructive. The jury's still out as to whether it's a net positive.
If we all had strong Asperger's, would logic and reason rule the day more often than it does? Would that in turn be net positive?
Food for thought: Would we then need to treat non-Asperger's people as having a disorder of their own? The question sharply illuminates the true purpose of medically treating someone with Asperger's and other autism-spectrum "disorders": To help them fit in better with the majority and hopefully be happier. Not to "fix" them.
The idea that Aspie individuals are paragons of logic and reason is misguided. The article even mentions individuals with Asperger's having stronger feelings, and there are theories that Asperger's individuals are actually more sensitive in general to everything, resulting in overstimulation both physically and emotionally very quickly. A world of Asperger's individuals does not mean a world of perfectly rational individuals.
I absolutely agree that Asperger's does not make an individual broken or inherently "worse" that others, and that the idea of "fixing" an Aspie through medical intervention is antiquated and harmful at worst, but I don't believe that an world full of Asperger's individuals would be logical, reasonable, or in any way inherent "better" than our current world. It would make the world different - not worse, not better - the same as how it makes the mind of an affected individual.
/rant
Pique, "to excite or arouse" :)
Define them, or guide them?
I'm not convinced this is anything more than the various styles of potential people. Take for example that I don't read or watch fiction. I haven't been able to cope with it my whole life. I read non-fiction and much prefer it.
Is that a preference? Is that some meaningful indication about who I am?
I don't know. I am hearing the spectrum answer from a lot of people. That sounds like an answer with no way to refute it, so the value of it is meaningless.
I really don't know much about this topic, and haven't given it the time to learn. My input is not particularly valuable in this discussion.
However my best guess is that this is trying to explain the range of human possibility with a diagnosis as opposed to simply thinking that there are different people with different traits, and that's all okay.
I used to be "unable" to do a lot of tasks of a business professional and just coded and worked alone.
Then I was promoted until I was unable to do what I was good at, and has to learn how to do the business tasks. Now I am doing them.
It wasn't that I was unable. I just didn't desire to do it on my own, and wasn't in a position where I had to regardless.
I sort of think of all of this like ADHD. The majority of parents I know tell me their kid has ADHD, and many are on medication for it.
And I watch them feed their children coke regularly.
To be completely honest, although he was very smart and I understood his condition, I found him extremely difficult and uncomfortable to work with. Which is really unfortunate.
But maybe that's the core difference. I can learn how to change my tactics, even if it took me years to figure it out.
Edit: The real key for me was turning social interaction into a programming problem. Once I did that, I went from completely inept terrible person to work for, to a person who works with C levels regularly, and does upper level VC work.
And all that really happened was I turned the business social interaction into a programming problem mentally. Once I turned it into a game, I started to succeed at it. But it's not organic.
1. Human evolution is still going on, and in the long term, Asperger's might represent a positive evolutionary adaptation, especially in a world increasingly dependent on technology. Only nature knows, and nature doesn't reveal her secrets willingly.
2 After a recent epidemic of overdiagnoses, psychologists are reluctantly abandoning the Asperger's diagnosis -- it's being removed from the DSM. The reason? Too many people wanted the diagnosis -- it was the first truly fashionable mental illness. After all, Isaac Newton, Albert Einstein, and Bill Gates are/were thought to have this "disease".
3. There is a positive psychological trait called "Grit":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grit_(personality_trait)
People who have "grit" tend to focus on a few objectives, or just one, for months or years. It's a "good thing™" -- psychologists say so. But the exact same behavior can lead to an Asperger's diagnosis. Have psychologists resolved this contradiction? Not remotely.
As far as I'm concerned, and in the opinion of an increasing number of psychologists, Asperger's refers to something real, but it shouldn't have been categorized as a mental illness -- unless intelligence should also be listed.
If psychology was a science this might all be different, but there's little hope for that.
More on this topic: http://arachnoid.com/building_science
The skills that make you a good programmer place you a little further out on that continuum almost by definition. [1]
Therefore the real question is: Do you feel you would benefit from the treatments that become available to you were you to receive the diagnosis?
[1] The simplest way to (sort of) get that is this quote from Inventing on Principle: "People we consider to be skilled software engineers are just the people really good at 'playing computer.'" (http://vimeo.com/36579366 @ 17m40s)
I've got some of the tendencies too. I've overcome all the social aspects, but I still often prefer being alone to think. Being social actually takes work but "being the machine" (as the article calls it) is easy.
EDIT: And of course I'll hire someone with Aspergers ... but maybe not for a sales position where schmoozing customers is a big part of the job. The hiring process is the same regardless as you need to evaluate each candidate's suitability in filling the open position.
> ... but maybe not for a sales position where
> schmoozing customers is a big part of the job.
I've never been diagnosed with Aspergers, but I definitely share some of the tendencies. At some point around junior high / high school (in the late 80's and early 90's, having never heard of "Aspergers") I realized I had to really start putting a lot of effort into figuring out how other people thought because it wasn't something that came naturally to me.
Over the years I got a lot better at it. I certainly get it wrong a lot of the time (who doesn't) but overall I think I'm better than average at it.
To me it's similar to the phenomenon of non-native English speakers often speaking English more properly than native English speakers: the non-native English speakers have often made a conscious effort to learn the language from books and professionals whereas most native English speakers simply pick up an imperfect version of English from their parents at a very young age without conscious effort.
Since understanding others didn't come naturally to me, I had to actually really think about it and work about it for a lot of years!
When it gets released this means no-one will be diagnosed with Aspergers (along with other forms of autism) from then on, it will all fall under the same autism umbrella because of the range of the spectrum.
If you have a job that fits their skills and don't ding them for not say golfing with the "team" I think there are opportunities to pick up highly talented people that other companies are not chasing who will stick around.Anybody here relate?
Um, not to hate or anything, but there is a reason it is called autistic syndrome. Autistic people lack the ability to form a "theory of brain", which means they just do not understand other people's intentions that well. You can't ignore this fact and hope it will go away.
All cases are different, but those with Aspergers can learn to understand others with effort. It's not impossible for them, it just doesn't come very naturally and will perhaps require extra effort and dedication.
There is even an online test
http://psychology-tools.com/autism-spectrum-quotient/
I scored one point less than the minimum to be considered in the Asperger spectrum, and I hadn't had any "symptom" in my infancy, so I wouldn't be surprise if you already had hired an Aspie without knowing.
This TedTalks takes an interesting approach to Autism in the professional world. Enjoy.
Under the DSM-IV, one of the criteria reads: "(III) The disturbance causes clinically significant impairments in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning." -- generally, it's up to a psychiatrist's professional judgement to determine this. Sometimes it will be obvious; sometimes it won't. Don't self-diagnose.
So yeah, you could be somewhere along the spectrum. Or you could just have certain personality traits that are somewhat like it. Be careful with labeling yourself unnecessarily. It can be comforting but also limiting.
Oh forget about it. I'm going back to work.
Simon Baron-Cohen Autistic Spectrum Test
People just don't have the tools to assess others' intentions or real character. Instead of admitting that their machinery for doing this is error-prone, they come up with stories about other people that have no basis in reality. The socially marginal or unskilled get screwed.
If anything, I think that people with Asperger's are, on average, slightly better (morally speaking) than the general population. Most people get stuck at Kohlberg's Stage 3 of moral development (although, in the corporate world, they speak a Stage 4 language, dressing social smears up as "performance problems"). People with Asperger's tend to skip Stage 3 (because they fundamentally don't get it) and land early in 4, which means they have an above-normal likelihood of progressing to 5-6.