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0 pointsTeMPOraL12y ago0 comments

> unless you are willing to concede that any document format is code

Because it is. Data vs. code distinction is arbitrary. The following sequence of characters:

"echo 'foobar';"

can be interpreted as describing a string, a series of tokens, a piece of code, a piece of music or a small icon, whatever interpretation you choose.

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defen12y ago

Yes, I understand that "code is data". This does not mean that data, in general, is code; unless you are willing to make the words completely meaningless. "Code" requires some notion of an execution platform/environment, which does not exist for arbitrary data. Here is a string: "the quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog". Or how about "\u0000\u0000". That is not code, as generally understood.

TeMPOraLOP12y ago

> "Code" requires some notion of an execution platform/environment, which does not exist for arbitrary data.

Arbitrary data don't exist without some notion of an execution (or interpretation) platform.

We tend to use "code" as a word for "commands telling some execution process what to do" and "data" as a word for "information that is meant to be transformed" but in reality this distinction is meaningless; both are fundamentally the same thing, and even our "code" vs. "data" words have blurry borders. It's very apparent when you start reading configuration files. For example, aren't Ant "configuration files" essentially programs[0]?

We all know what we usually mean in context by saying what is "code" vs. what is "data", but one has to remember, that in fact they are the same - minding it leads to insights like metaprogramming. Forgetting about it leads to dumb languages and nasty problems, and is generally not wise.

[0] - the answer is: yes, they are, see http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html for more.

ETA:

Questions to ponder:

- are regular expressions code, or data?

- is source written in Prolog code, or data?

Also I recommend watching http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kEfedtQVOY to learn how what would be data, as defined by formal grammars of some real-world protocols, can - by means of sloppy grammars and bad parser implementation - cross the threshold of Turing-completeness and become code.

defen12y ago

I understand all this. Like many people, I've written programs in C++ templates. But I think we're talking past each other because you want to make a pedantic point. I'm using the words as they are generally understood, not in a technical computer science way. I'm talking about first-level stuff, not metaprogramming. Let me give you some questions to ponder:

- Is the text of Hamlet code?

- Was it code as soon as Shakespeare wrote it?

- If not, did it become code once the electronic computer was invented? Or did that happen once a version was stored in a way accessible to an electronic computer?

- Did all the existing paper copies immediately become code at that point as well?

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defen12y ago

TeMPOraLOP12y ago

> "Code" requires some notion of an execution platform/environment, which does not exist for arbitrary data.

Arbitrary data don't exist without some notion of an execution (or interpretation) platform.

[0] - the answer is: yes, they are, see http://www.defmacro.org/ramblings/lisp.html for more.

ETA:

Questions to ponder:

- are regular expressions code, or data?

- is source written in Prolog code, or data?

defen12y ago

- Is the text of Hamlet code?

- Was it code as soon as Shakespeare wrote it?

- If not, did it become code once the electronic computer was invented? Or did that happen once a version was stored in a way accessible to an electronic computer?

- Did all the existing paper copies immediately become code at that point as well?

2 more replies

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse