undefined | Better HN

0 pointsjude-10y ago0 comments

Hello Dr. Mazieres, thank you for making the Stellar whitepaper available!

While inter-domain route agreements show precedent for building a robust network out of pairwise relationships, might this particular class of agreement also work because it happens to be a "small world" where failures are obvious? That is, the set of major AS operators is small enough that all the major players know one another (since ICANN) maintains a centralized list of who owns which AS number), and bogus route announcements are easy for an AS operator to detect since they coincides with floods of angry tech support calls asking why www.foo.com no longer loads (or loads www.bar.com instead). By contrast, it seems that Stellar is geared towards environments with neither of these properties--large worlds with hard-to-notice failure modes.

I ask because I'd love to hear your thoughts on how to select quorum slices when considering the political and economic incentives that might influence which node operators I choose to trust. Specifically, do you foresee the emergence of a small set of big-player node operators that application developers almost universally (and blindly) select for their programs' quorum sets, like how web browsers and OEMs regard CA operators today? How can Stellar help users do better than blindly trusting a small set of operators? I'm assuming that the fact that big-player node operators must nevertheless externalize the same slot values in order to enjoy liveliness makes it easy for the application to automatically detect any equivocation? If so, how would nodes be deployed to resist DDoS attacks that try to break the vast majority of usres' quorum sets? I'm getting the impression that there's a missing precondition here that for a large-scale Stellar deployment to be successful, there must be a very diverse set of quorum sets.

Thanks again!

0 comments

mazieres10y ago

So first, a lot of problems with Internet routing do not really affect SCP's safety--for example bogus route announcements. Part of the reason is that SCP depends on transitive reachability. And of course part of the reason is that SCP is built on top of the Internet, so can already assume a basically running network underneath.

I can't predict the future, but I do think it is likely that a bunch of de facto important players will emerge and have fairly complete pairwise dependencies. One reason is that Stellar follows a gateway model, where counterparties issue credits. So for example, down the line people might want to store their money as Chase or Citibank USD credits. So people will already have some notion that some participants are trustworthy enough to hold their USD deposits, and these institutions will emerge as important. If I'm a Citibank customer and you send me money, I obviously won't consider the payment complete until Citibank says it is. And of course Citibank is likely to want to depend on a bunch of institutions they do business with, so even just one bank should give me good transitive reachability.

But the nice thing about safety is that you can reduce any individual party's trust by depending on more people. So for example Stellar will run a validator node for the foreseeable future, and their incentives are different from Citibank's. To gain more trust in the system, I might want to wait for both Stellar and Citibank to agree before considering any payment fully settled.

jsprogrammer10y ago

Why would I ever want to depend on Citibank?

rfugger10y ago

You obviously wouldn't. But lots of people depend on them already because lots of other people do and they don't want to spend any more time thinking about it than they absolutely have to. If you can convince them to change, more power to you.

andrewstellar10y ago

Let's say there's 3 big "tier 1" operators, which everyone trusts. This means that if 2/3 colluded to defraud the system, they could. Then, a smaller non-profit or more "trustworthy" node comes online and says, hey everybody, add me to your quorum slice. I'll listen to these big operators and make sure they're honest, and you can listen to me to verify that.

Now, regular nodes add the non profit node to each of their 2 member set slices. If one of the bigger guys colludes, the system is only blocked, because now the regular stellar users have depended on the non-profit node in each stellar slice, who has seen the collusion and isn't externalizing bogus transactions. Once the collusion is published by the whistle blower node, regular stellar nodes can remove those slices that contained the bad node, and the system moves forward.

Now this is a completely contrived example but you can generalize it as a chain of trust webs, where i listen to the someone, someone listens to me and the person i listen to, and so on.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse