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0 pointsmoonchrome10y ago0 comments

>You can always add more bandwidth, but latency is bound by the speed of light.

You're always bound by the same latency - your input goes to the server and server returns world state for your PC to render - the only extra latency in this scenario is time required to encode-decode the data which could be offset if the server is faster at rendering than the client PC.

As for economics I already said you can exploit the shared state very much in games if you rework the way rendering works. Right now games focus on camera space rendering because they only care about 1 view output and view space effects are cheapest in this scenario.

If you have shared state rendering suddenly you can process the instance state once per frame for 100s of users just like you simulate the game for 100s of users per instance.

You can have specialized hardware setups (ie. multiple high end GPUs with >10GB of ram) doing dedicated tasks like recomputing lighting/shadows, animation, particle effects, etc. you would need to find a way to make these systems asynchronous to reduce lag so lighting updates might lag a frame or two for eg. behind animation but as usual with rendering there are always clever tricks to fool the eye - and once you have gigabytes of ram at your disposal very different rendering techniques compared to currently used ones become viable for shared state rendering.

Someone already linked a platform that's already doing this - I have no doubt this is the future of VR and gaming at least in some part (maybe you won't be streaming video to the client but some geometric 3D world representation with deltas so that the final rendering can be done client side and you can have low latency rotation for stuff like VR)

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overgard10y ago

> You're always bound by the same latency - your input goes to the server and server returns world state for your PC to render

That's untrue of most games. Most games will accept inputs immediately on the client, and only correct from the server if things get significantly out of sync ("rubber banding"). Dead reckoning is both hard and super important.

> As for economics I already said you can exploit the shared state very much in games if you rework the way rendering works. Right now games focus on camera space rendering because they only care about 1 view output and view space effects are cheapest in this scenario.

The way you say this makes me think you have no idea how rendering works. There is no rendering without a camera. The idea doesn't even make sense.

> recomputing lighting/shadows, animation, particle effects, etc

Particle effects are dependent on graphics card bandwidth and fill rate. No benefit of shared state. Animation is done in vertex shaders. No benefit of shared state. Lighting and shadows are done through GPU buffers. No benefit of shared state.

The only possible system where shared state could (maybe) be useful in the way you describe is some sort of massive ray tracing operation. That wouldn't have anything to do with GPUs, and if you're talking about real time ray tracing the economics of this just got sillier. Now you're basically talking about a super computer cluster.

> I have no doubt this is the future of VR

VR is BY FAR the most sensitive to even minor latency. There's no way you're doing VR over a network.

moonchromeOP10y ago

>That's untrue of most games. Most games will accept inputs immediately on the client, and only correct from the server if things get significantly out of sync ("rubber banding"). Dead reckoning is both hard and super important.

Most games aren't MMOs

>The way you say this makes me think you have no idea how rendering works. There is no rendering without a camera. The idea doesn't even make sense.

What a narrow minded view. There are data structures that can store geometry and lighting information in world space - for example you can have world represented by some sparse voxel data structure and calculate lighting in worlds space - then camera rendering is just raycasting in to the datastructure which is the same for all views. Animation and particles are about updating the world geometry.

>Particle effects are dependent on graphics card bandwidth and fill rate. No benefit of shared state. Animation is done in vertex shaders. No benefit of shared state. Lighting and shadows are done through GPU buffers. No benefit of shared state.

This is because current rendering systems are optimized for client side rendering which is my point. If you discard the notion that the only way to render 3D geometry is using GPU pipeline and triangle rasterization you'll see that there are a lot of possibilities. Unfortunately not a lot of research has been done because rendering 3D polygons fit the constraints we had historically and is really robust, everything is optimized towards it.

>VR is BY FAR the most sensitive to even minor latency. There's no way you're doing VR over a network.

Which is why I said you could stream geometry data updates instead of video - this way your client re-renders to match camera movements but the animation is streamed from the server

overgard10y ago

> What a narrow minded view. There are data structures that can store geometry and lighting information in world space - for example you can have world represented by some sparse voxel data structure and calculate lighting in worlds space - then camera rendering is just raycasting in to the datastructure which is the same for all views. Animation and particles are about updating the world geometry.

That only works for diffuse lighting. There is more than diffuse lighting. I'm not "narrow minded", I actually work on renderers for a living so I know the actual data structures in use. Things like specular reflections and refractions are entirely dependent on where the viewer is; and calculating lighting information for an entire scene is way less efficient than calculating it for a viewer (see: how deferred renderers work).

> Unfortunately not a lot of research has been done because rendering 3D polygons fit the constraints we had historically and is really robust, everything is optimized towards it.

Huh? There's been decades of research into ray tracing and voxels. Believe me, people have put a lot of thought into how to optimize these things.

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0 pointsmoonchrome10y ago0 comments

>You can always add more bandwidth, but latency is bound by the speed of light.

If you have shared state rendering suddenly you can process the instance state once per frame for 100s of users just like you simulate the game for 100s of users per instance.

0 comments

overgard10y ago

> You're always bound by the same latency - your input goes to the server and server returns world state for your PC to render

The way you say this makes me think you have no idea how rendering works. There is no rendering without a camera. The idea doesn't even make sense.

> recomputing lighting/shadows, animation, particle effects, etc

> I have no doubt this is the future of VR

VR is BY FAR the most sensitive to even minor latency. There's no way you're doing VR over a network.

moonchromeOP10y ago

Most games aren't MMOs

>The way you say this makes me think you have no idea how rendering works. There is no rendering without a camera. The idea doesn't even make sense.

>VR is BY FAR the most sensitive to even minor latency. There's no way you're doing VR over a network.

Which is why I said you could stream geometry data updates instead of video - this way your client re-renders to match camera movements but the animation is streamed from the server

overgard10y ago

> Unfortunately not a lot of research has been done because rendering 3D polygons fit the constraints we had historically and is really robust, everything is optimized towards it.

Huh? There's been decades of research into ray tracing and voxels. Believe me, people have put a lot of thought into how to optimize these things.

1 more reply

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse