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0 pointslogfromblammo10y ago0 comments

Pumped storage has the same "greenness" profile as the whole grid had when the pumping was happening, minus the efficiency loss from the round-trip conversion.

Pumping upward typically happens when the renewables are overproducing and the (controllably) variable power plants are idling. It makes no sense to run the pumps for storage when you could throttle back the gas turbines instead. But you can't adjust cloud cover, or tweak windspeed. So when the sun is shining, and the wind blowing, and the methane not burning, you store that excess for later.

That may also include relatively constant baseline power plants. But even then, the storage is often allowing those plants to run at their optimally efficient design capacity. If you idle the coal plant to 80% rated output, you may still be using 85% as much coal (made-up numbers for illustrative purposes). Trying to adjust the output of a nuclear plant is rather complicated, and may involve altering shutdown and maintenance schedules such that the output capacity several months in the future is affected by a decision made today.

So on the whole, re-generation from pumped storage is going to be greener than the baseline plants, and definitely greener than other types of adjustable peak load power plants, like natural gas turbines.

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liotier10y ago

> Pumped storage has the same "greenness" profile as the whole grid

Yes !

> Trying to adjust the output of a nuclear plant is rather complicated, and may involve altering shutdown and maintenance schedules such that the output capacity several months in the future is affected by a decision made today.

Older nuclear power plants may take many hours, if not days, to achieve a steady state power output but modern nuclear plants with light water reactors are designed to have strong manoeuvring capabilities. Nuclear power plants in France and in Germany operate in load-following mode.

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Country-Profiles/Countries... says:

"There are two ways of varying the power output from a PWR: control rods, and boron addition to the primary cooling water. Using normal control rods to reduce power means that there is a portion of the core where neutrons are being absorbed rather than creating fission, and if this is maintained it creates an imbalance in the fuel, with the lower part of the fuel assemblies being more reactive that the upper parts. Adding boron to the water diminishes the reactivity uniformly, but to reverse the effect the water has to be treated to remove the boron, which is slow and costly, and it creates a radioactive waste.

So to minimise these impacts for the last 25 years EdF has used in each PWR reactor some less absorptive "grey" control rods which weigh less from a neutronic point of view than ordinary control rods and they allow sustained variation in power output. This means that RTE can depend on flexible load following from the nuclear fleet to contribute to regulation in these three respects:

- Primary power regulation for system stability (when frequency varies, power must be automatically adjusted by the turbine).

- Secondary power regulation related to trading contracts.

- Adjusting power in response to demand (decrease from 100% during the day, down to 50% or less during the night, etc.)

PWR plants are very flexible at the beginning of their cycle, with fresh fuel and high reserve reactivity. But when the fuel cycle is around 65% through these reactors are less flexible, and they take a rapidly diminishing part in the third, load-following, aspect above. When they are 90% through the fuel cycle, they only take part in frequency regulation, and essentially no power variation is allowed (unless necessary for safety). So at the very end of the cycle, they are run at steady power output and do not regulate or load-follow until the next refueling outage. RTE has continuous oversight of all French plants and determines which plants adjust output in relation to the three considerations above, and by how much.

RTE's real-time picture of the whole French system operating in response to load and against predicted demand shows the total of all inputs. This includes the hydro contribution at peak times, but it is apparent that in a coordinated system the nuclear fleet is capable of a degree of load following, even though the capability of individual units to follow load may be limited.

Plants being built today, eg according to European Utilities' Requirements (EUR), have load-following capacity fully built in."

http://www.neimagazine.com/features/featureload-following-ca... says:

"Slow ramps of =1.5% Pr per minute are most often used in France and the typical low power level is about 50% Pr. However, sometimes nuclear power plants operate at power levels below 50%. Some plants operate in a special operating mode (18 hours at rated power and 6 hours at low power) with steep ramps of 2-5% Pr per minute. In this mode the reactor is always capable of returning to the rated power level in a very short period, with a fast ramp of 5% of Pr per minute."

More on load following in nuclear power plants: http://www.oecd-nea.org/ndd/reports/2011/load-following-npp....

logfromblammoOP10y ago

And if this sort of thing interests you, also read up on "neutron poisons" and the "iodine pit".

Basically, it takes about 500 hours (3 weeks) before a chain-reacting fission core reaches equilibrium with neutron-absorbing reaction products. A core that is late in its fuel cycle might not be able to achieve a self-sustaining chain reaction from a shut down state until after the radioactive neutron absorbers have been left a while to decay.

The longer the fuel rod has been in the reactor, the less you are able to modulate its output.

You really do have to look at Europe (especially France) for operating nuclear plant best practices, because most plants in the US are not built to a common design, and they may not be able to adopt improvements pioneered at another site. The US solution is usually to put the upgrades into the next-generation reactor designs, which never quite get to replace the old existing designs because of radfear and NIMBYism.

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