Like Google Search going out in the western world
People in the west are too naive to realise that in russia no body asks what people think. The level of propaganda is so strong that people would believe whatever they are told.
The idiocy of those in the west who think that russians can decide something once they face sanctions is overwhelming. In the very long therm it may be but thus completely inadequate measure in the moment.
Another idiocy is to think that claiming that NATO isn’t the part of the conflict can prevent them to actually become a part of the conflict. The moment russia will decide they will invent the cause to attack just as they did with Ukraine.
Now we hear how sanctions will not change russian opinions, but it seems these already started to change, as some cracks appear: some politicians speak against war, some oligarchs criticize putin, some Russians are also migrating to Finland [1], as well as a protest started in Nizhnekamsk [2].
This is not to say that you're entirely wrong, it indeed is very hard to convince someone as heavily indoctrinated as russian nation, but I think it is possible.
[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_pHglSTvgbI [2] https://twitter.com/ilya_shepelin/status/1500073553055657986...
In my experience, these statements are contradictory. When nobody asks what the people think, the people notice, believe little, and keep their own thoughts close.
To their credit, the NATO officials and European leaders who are normally prone to think this way are backing up their deescalatory talk with defensive troop movements and jet fighter deployments.
They cannot think, so we are stupid for not adjusting to their limitations / conformity?
Aren't we?
Putin brought this on his people for some idealogic crusade. Not everyone will understand but some will.
Does anyone know when debt events for other Russian bluechips, and possibly even Russian government bonds themselves are?
https://dcweekly.org/2022/03/04/russia-halts-payments-on-bon...
https://reason.com/2013/12/06/did-economic-sanctions-help-en...
Rather it says that the ANC (opposition) was supported by the Soviets. So the apartheid government argued that apartheid was necessary to keep out communism.
When the Soviets collapsed, this argument weakened and more people were convinced to dismantle apartheid.
Supporting these affected nations is a win for all involved, except Russia. We should prevent them from going into recession, enable them to reduce their dependence on Russia, while strengthening our relationship with them.
I mean.. do you really think this is going to happen? No one will pay attention to Kyrgyzstan just at they aren't paying attention now. I don't understand these flowery, optimistic arguments that have no bearing to reality. Russia is still the local superpower in the area and they will likely continue to lean on them for support. The alternative is to entirely change their economy to rely on western support, and except western countries to actually bother to try and prop up Kyrgyzstan
Right now, my Russian friends tell me that state propaganda is so strong that a significant proportion of the Russian population believe the Ukranian deaths are due to Ukranians just killing themselves.
Surely at some point they'll see that what they're being told doesn't make sense. Especially if they also start to see a deterioration in their quality of life...
Just as with some of the worst lies of Brexit or anti-EU sentiment in mainland Europe, the worst of the lies people believed in the USA were helped by Putin's "outreach" work, both in terms of dark money and via the disinformation teams operated out of the Kremlin like the GRU, and by hacking/activist groups who were possibly unwittingly controlled.
In a climate of disinformation, it's Putin's world, in many ways, and we just live in it. Putin's regime is the primary exporter of state-sponsored misinformation and disinformation globally.
And as to people struggling with things not making sense: that's literally the point.
Both in and outside Russia, Putin's aim is not to have a consistent projected worldview or propaganda; his aim, and his success, is in undermining everyone else's. He was taught to do this by people like Vladislav Surkov, and he is very good at it.
He wants you not to trust anything to be true; just trust that his power is true.
The crackdown on non-state media, especially if it is not exactly in line with the state propaganda message, makes it harder to do that.
> Especially if they also start to see a deterioration in their quality of life...
A narrative that explains and places blame elsewhere for that is fairly easy with complete control of information, especially since it being due to economic warfare by the West is true (and how even some Western leaders have described it.)
I live in Turkey and we have a similar state propaganda (though fortunately not war). The government successfully collapsed the economy but they control the mainstream media and their supporters still blame (and truly believe in what they say) the opposition for everything bad that the government does.
Controlling people's mindset is apparently easier than it seems when you control media.
This sounds like Western meta-propaganda. Russia isn't some mysterious other-world filled with low IQ people. Are we really to believe that swaths of their population believes the Ukranians are merely offing themselves during an invasion? Is there anything we can read that points to this, even Fox News-type article making the claim? Colour me skpetical.
Not at all hard to believe that a significant proportion of Russian people believe this lie.
I think you misinterpreted what the parent poster meant about Ukrainian s killing themselves. It probably meant Ukrainians killing other Ukrainians in false flag operations and not suicides.
This is exactly what they believe. More then that , they are told that some of Ukrainians are “nazis” who kill ‘normal’ Ukrainians. They’ve been told that all horrible bombing scenes the world is witnessing are done not by rus. invader but by by those “nazis” Ukrainians. They are truly believe that and they are happy that rus. army is saving “normal” Ukrainians.
Talk to me about their IQ but it is impossible to convince them otherwise, and trust me I’ve tried and others tried they are complete zombies and would not trust even relatives. They would say that you are brain washed by western propaganda and only them are proud russians who know the truth. No logic can convince them because the source of their believes is not logically based but emotionally based.
Yes it’s that bad! And people in the west who do not understand that are too naive and have no idea with what they are dealing and how enormously dangerous it is. For many people this war came as big surprise. They still think that if russians only knew they would stop. Only force cam stop them now. Sanctions are too little too late and too slow and people in Ukraine are dying also due to the stupidity and naivety of those who can stop it.
If you think I am exaggerating, try to convince at least one russian, and share your experience here !!!
Neither is the US. But you and me have seen during this pandemic, to people able to reason that pneumonia can kill, and covid can cause pneumonia, but unable to reason that covid can kill. Propaganda is like that.
You only have to take a look at what sects do to people to see the kind of gymnastics people can do in their reasoning because propaganda.
To clarify the belief that was cultivated through propaganda is that there are reckless Nazi groups in Ukraine who stop at nothing to hurt russians. They were striking at ethnically russian regions of Ukraine for last 8 years. When Russia invaded to fight these groups they positioned their forces in the hospitals and schools. As they strike back they are hitting their own schools and hospitals mostly from being sloppy, because that's what they are and the equipment is old. And in some cases maliciously, because they need gruesome content for the west. Russian forces are doing precision strikes and hurt no civilians.
I think you underestimate how massive and elaborate Russian propaganda is. These stories are fed in pieces over weeks, sometimes years. For example it took multiple years to establish and cement the idea of Nazi groups in Ukraine. Now if you start at this belief it's not that far fetched to believe these groups have no regard for human life whether it is their foreign or their own.
She’s a latvian citizen - but Russian speaking - so she consumes Russian TV and radio.
My wife had a tearful falling out with her a few days ago on the phone, as she’s absolutely drunk the Kool-aid - Ukrainians are all Nazis, we’re rescuing Russian prisoners, Biden is planning a nuclear first strike on St Petersburg, etc. etc.
A large swathe of the population grew up in a world where the state is the world, and everything external to the state is the enemy.
I'd expect such sentiments to continue and amplify over time — but hopefully support for the war will also be driven down in parallel. Even if it's considered a tactical blunder ("we can't afford to keep up this special operation") rather than a moral one.
I'm not sure Billy will come back that way.
Let's face it: Russia is illegaly invading a foreign country that is fighting back hard. The only way I see out for Russia to save itself is by sending Putin into exile and blame it all on him.
Putin hoped for weakness in the west re sanctions and weapons. They play hardball and now Putin is failing.
edit: I also believe nuclear is the only war Russia could even think about against the west. The army isn't that strong obviously... It is really a bad situation because NOBODY in the west has thought about attacking Russia at all. It is all in their heads. It's just plain stupid.
There are things that might work - big celebrities like top hockey players and other sportsmen could stand up and criticize Putin directly, not just issue some blank statements of wanting peace and not even mentioning what they actually mean by that (Ovechkin is a prime example).
Microsoft could ban any access to license servers, updates, office stuff etc (that might be a massive hit, I recall some UK submarines was running completely on Windows XP few years, I am sure half the state would stop working immediately).
Apple and Google could block any access to their stores, updates, apps etc... Ideally with some message explaining why, shown to every user. But that's a bold move, I don't think they have balls for that yet. Things will get much worse in Ukraine at this rate though, so this may change.
Right now the only change is that google disabled YouTube ads for russian users. Which would make me more eager to sit home and numb my mind with videos
Add a cultivated desire to be “great again” plus economic hardship imposed from outside and Putin can hold a tight leach as he’s been doing. That’s the first time he’s probably gambling his life, but he’s far from being defeated.
In the US as significant part of the population will believe that the political party in power is the source of everything bad, counter to any evidence. Paradoxically, evidence against that point of view is almost taken as proof: "that's what they want you to believe!".
Try talking to an ardent Trump opponent or supporter that he did even the least little thing right or wrong. It's maddening the contortions of reasoning and deflection. He's so very polarizing so the phenomena is more extreme with him but the same goes for any president in my lifetime.
Now imagine there's only one real political party, more controls on information, and a general human desire to not see themselves or their "tribe" as the villains in any situation...
The type of sentiment change you're hoping for can occur, but my own observation is that it only happens very gradually over many years or very suddenly when sparked by something cataclysmic, and that second method has as much chance of hardening the mindset with more rationalizing as it does changing it.
I remember thinking that way, too, back in 2016.
A lot of people accepted the corruption because life became significantly better. And was noticeably freer in some ways, like the allowance of non-state media and the freedom to leave, compared to the Communist era.
In other words, even the least-propagandized Russians seem to be heavily influenced.
Unfortunately, it will probably take a lot of catastrophic economic damage before Putin loses support — as in whole companies going down, life savings destroyed, bankruptcies, loss of homes, hunger, desperation. Think of how difficult it is to overcome your own biases — have you ever changed your mind about something your country did?
Sanctions are horrible especially on this scale, and even those of us who believe they are appropriate have to stay clear-eyed about what happens.
Doesn't really matter in a dictatorship. Putin is likely to suspend the "right to vote" next and turn Russia into North Korea, officially.
No, not a ghost plane. Just a nickname given to a pilot (though it could be multiple pilots) who allegedly shot down a handful of Russian planes in the first days of the war. "Ghost of Kyiv." There's uncertainty and a lot of speculation going on about this pilot's accomplishments (and identity), but that doesn't mean the Ukrainians are being told lies.
It doesn't have to be myth or lies and propaganda to be given a nickname. See also The White Death.
