Finally solves the inscrutable Hello World program!
Yes, it's just ergonomics for early beginners. But could be the difference in whether or not someone new to programming sticks with Java or not.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/csharp/fundamentals...
I can only think the reason why they did this was to compete with python, as our scripting languages that do not require a main/Main entry point.
Personally, it just feels wrong for compiled-based languages.
I think they could improve on C# with their namespace. Rather, for example, a typical C# file looking like:-
using EFG;
namespace ABC
{
public class XYZ
{
}
}
They could just :- using EFG;
using namespace ABC;
public class XYZ
{
}
Pretty much taken from the C++ way.. but it saves on space availability.This solves the public static void main string args issue.
Still if I need JVM then Scala or Kotlin are still preferable over Java.
Obligatory Java for the Haters in 100 Seconds: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m4-HM_sCvtQ
That's so 2010. I would avoid Scala like plague. It is a soup of all features imagined and some more. Java is difficult for novice. With Scala even experienced senior devs can look into a snippet and be befuddled. It is designed by academicians who thought clever looking choice is better.
It's better to just say "we will come to this concept later", rather than make a fake syntax that does this (taken from the JEP) behind the scenes:
new Object() { // the implicit class's body }.main();
It adds more confusion, as you are left explaining that you could not really run an instance method without instantiating the class -- it was just something fake for beginners.
Compare that with Kotlin where you have top-level functions, so that `main` is just like any other function.
Console.WriteLine("Hello, world!") class MyClass {
{
System.out.println("Hello World!");
}
}
This will run when an object of the class is instantiated. So not useful for the case in question (you could get rid of the class declaration but would presumably still need a main method).(It's also pretty poor style, but occasionally useful in a pinch, like when instantiating an anonymous inner class, which has no constructors that take arguments)
It’s okay if you’re only writing a single file, and it really seems intended for beginners or micro applications, but for those of us writing anything besides the most trivial, it’s merely “cute” and just adds inconsistency.
System.out.println("Hello world!");Given these are still methods of classes this JEP seems pointless to me. Not having to write class x {} isn't a great time saver.
Or maybe we'll all move to Kotlin by then.
New and shiny syntax sugar becomes stale real quick.
For me personally the most interesting one is JEP461 (Stream Gatherers) https://openjdk.org/jeps/461
This will allow addition of interesting stream operations.
Even after nearly 30 years, Java is still a good choice to start something new (e.g. a startup).
Interop with iOS OTOH is a breeze, some of the APIs may require newer Swift Library Evolution ABI (direct calls to Swift exprots, without going through C/objC) but .NET is getting it in .NET 9 (the first and only platform to have it at the moment of release).
That said, you really need to write a bunch of boiler-plate to implement useful things in java-like paradigms in the library today. Just as an example, I wrote up a sane windows _getcwd() stub and it's like 30 lines to implement correctly (properly freeing the buffer when I'm down with it)
My pet project is to see if I can write automatic stubs around calls based on published API info and sources, so that at least some of that platform binding lift isn't just for those with non-trivial knowledge of C. Well, that's the hope anyways.
1. Pointers to the same (and not just references to objects).
2. Unions (via explicit-layout structs)
3. Function pointers.
4. C-style varargs.
To be fair, not all of these have been exposed in C# historically even though CLR had them all along. Most notably, unmanaged function pointers took over 20 years. And since most people look at CLR through the prism of C#, they aren't necessarily aware of these features.
Still, one way or the other, we're at the point where pretty much any C program can be transpiled to C# in a one-to-one mapping of almost every construct (setjmp/longjmp has to be emulated with exceptions), and a very similar performance profile of the resulting code.
However, I am a little concerned about the heavy emphasis on library unloading in the JEP. Unloading is famously fraught and unsafe for wide swaths of common libraries ... or maybe I'm overfitting due to recent trauma[1] and everything will be fine.
1. https://gist.github.com/thomcc/8c4a8003cf1a282949a539e899cb4...
But the ugliness of JNI stopped me. Then I tried FFI in Java 21, with jextract it was amazing.
I wasn't aware of FFI at first, but the finalized version of virtual threads made me check the Java release notes.
Part of the problem is the changes made between 8 and 17 could be incredibly disruptive depending on your libraries.
If they had stuck to not using sun.* stuff you were pretty safe, but a few very popular things did.
Then somewhere in there a lot of the common server stuff moved from javax.* over to jakarta.*.
Both were needed and very good, but could turn into dependency nightmares. So depending on your app/stack it wasn’t an easy transition.
17 is fantastic though, especially coming from 8. I’m excited about what’s already in 21 (latest LTS) and coming in the next LTS after that.
Java 8 is still under Extended Support until 2030 (and indefinite sustaining support). Java 11 left Premier Support September 2023.
"Java SE 8 has gone through the End of Public Updates process for legacy releases. Oracle will continue to provide free public updates and auto updates of Java SE 8 indefinitely for Personal, Development and other Users via java.com".
https://www.oracle.com/java/technologies/java-se-support-roa...
It wasn't ever part of the public API that's promised to never break, and JDK developers were annoyed that it being used meant Java got perceived as unstable, and it's gone in more recent versions.
As for the changes in 8->9, there was a stagnation period in the last year of Sun, and many people overfitted their libs to 8, by e.g. making use of internal APIs made accessible through reflection. This was never a good idea, and all that is happening now is that you have to explicitly state at invocation what kinds of non-future-proof modules you make use of, so that you are made aware of what could potentially change, plus it disincentivizes libraries from accessing these non-public APIs.
Snark aside, the problem with Java in the enterprise is that Oracle provides support for mind-bogglingly ancient versions (if you're willing to pay them). This disincentivizes companies from upgrading, ends up frustrating their developers, and has probably contributed to the negative reputation that Java has in some corner of the net.
I get that tracking the current version isn't feasible for most companies, especially if software isn't their core business. The Java folks do their best to make upgrades painless, but the longer you wait, the more painful it gets.
Java 8 keeps working, while "modern" Java keeps chasing mistakes like green threads. If anything, I'm more baffled by 9+ having a non-neglegible market share at all.
If by green threads you mean virtual threads in JDK 21 could you please elaborate why they are a mistake? I'm not a Java developer but from what I see new concurrency model allows to write much more efficient network software - OS threads are expensive (in terms of RAM/CPU) and to handle many thousands of network connections (C10k problem) you have to either throw a lot of hardware or use NIO (New/Non-blocking I/O) which is hard to code.
One of reasons why Go become popular - gorutines look like normal threads (relatively easy to code) but more efficient.
- OpenJDK21: https://ports.macports.org/port/openjdk21/details/ , - openjdk21-zulu: https://ports.macports.org/port/openjdk21-zulu/details/ - openjdk21-oracle: https://ports.macports.org/port/openjdk21-oracle/details/
each of them having so many variants (see the links). What variant needs to be installed to just run a Java app?
If you want to just quickly run a fat jar then any will work. "openjdk21" is fine. The Zulu variant comes with JavaFX which simplifies things if your app needs that.
1. Applets ( Advertise the JVM capability "Applets".)
2.BundledApp ( Advertise the JVM capability "BundledApp". This is required by some java-based app bundles to recognize and use the JVM.)
3. JNI ( Advertise the JVM capability "JNI". This is required by some java-based app bundles to recognize and use the JVM.)
4. WebStart ( Advertise the JVM capability "WebStart".)
- what the heck? I think I am better off without Java. :)
TIL the past participle of 'bikeshed' is 'bikeshod'. Tremendous.
Seven iterations? What is going on with vectors in Java?
Even only considering JVM languages you run in to way too many options for the question in itself to be worth your time as a serious discussion.
IMO - use whatever you and your team like best and that suits your needs. Java is great for hiring new devs and is arguably the most well established in an enterprise settings.
If you want an actual answer: Personal preference.
I was hoping someone would answer with concrete technical tradeoffs and comparisons e.g. compile times, null safety, common footguns, personal experiences, etc.
I was recently asked for a comparison between Kotlin and modern Java by a team that's considering a migration of their legacy Java service. I haven't kept up with Java's changes, so didn't have an offhand unbiased comparison to share.
I've worked on backend Kotlin and Java codebases for the last five years and have introduced Kotlin to dozens of teams across my company. Nobody I've introduced Kotlin to has ever ended up preferring Java or switching back to it. There's been initial skepticism at first (reasonable), but after working in Kotlin for a week or two, I've seen even the staunchest Java devs proclaim they're never going back.
To the point on personal preference, I think it's a factor but I don't think it's _the answer_. It's a blanket statement that ignores important details. Languages have different affordances, features, paradigms, and patterns that lead you to develop and think in different ways. Some differences like null safe types are obvious improvements for a large codebase with many contributors. The feature catches real bugs and makes the system easier to build and maintain.
I think there's a lot of warranted skepticism of JVM languages that aren't Java, but something about Kotlin feels very different. For comparison, I've worked with Scala (Spark) and played around with Clojure in my free time.
I'm not sure what feels so much better compared to other JVM languages, but if I had to guess I'd say it's an emergent quality from a few things JetBrains has done really well. In particular:
- The 100% Java interop claim is real. I've only had minor hiccups with Lombok - The ability to incrementally adopt Kotlin in an existing Java codebase - The IDE support in IntelliJ IDEA is unbelievable. The suggested refactorings subtly teach you the language - Null safety lets you focus on domain modeling and business logic instead of error handling and validation - Kotlin's backwards compatibility. New versions never seem to break anything. And they even provide refactoring actions in IntelliJ to automatically update deprecated usages - Very few significant paradigm shifts. Kotlin doesn't force you to totally change your Java code to fit a functional style or anything like that. It just tries to make safer code easier to write - The political stability and longevity gained from Android's blessing as a first-class language makes Kotlin feel like more than just another JVM language. There's Kotlin running on billions of devices. That's a pretty big ship to turn around, sink, or replace
To summarize, Kotlin just feels like the elephant in the room. Aside from low-level changes like new FFI possibilities and GC improvements, it's not clear to me what value Java upgrades add in comparison to Kotlin—especially in regards to new language features and syntax.
Anyways, hopefully this followup post starts a more fruitful discussion. I asked this question in earnest based on my personal experiences and observations. If you haven't tried Kotlin yet, I'd suggest cracking open an IntelliJ scratch file and test driving it yourself.