It started as a Boston-based idea (where I live), but I built it with flexibility in mind so it could scale to other cities if there’s interest. It’s intentionally not on Meetup or Facebook - I wanted something that feels more intentional, with a better UX and less noise.
Right now, I'm in the “see if this resonates with anyone” stage. If this sounds interesting to you and you're in Boston or another city where this type of thing might be needed, drop a comment or shot me an email. I'd love to hear any feedback on the site and ideas on how we can fix the male loneliness epidemic in the work-from-home era.
The interesting thing though is how the solution is always location-agnostic. By that I mean it’s never really about a specific cafe or restaurant or soccer field, it’s always an app or service that organizes people to show up in various places.
I bring this up because if you look at places that had lively social activities a few decades or a century ago, they were almost always a specific place.
The neighborhood cafe where locals can stop by at any time and see other locals. The bar that everyone stops by after work twice a week. These are stationary physical locations that don’t require pre-planning, schedules, apps, or anything else.
For instance Men’s Sheds are a local effort with a thousand locations in the UK:
> Men’s Sheds encourage people to come together to make, repair and repurpose, supporting projects in their local communities. Improving wellbeing, reducing loneliness and combatting social isolation.
> Research gathered by the UKMSA Health and Wellbeing Survey, 2023, suggests 96% of Men’s Shed attendees feel less lonely since joining a Shed.
Unfortunately, sometimes you get things like this happening:
> 'We put the pressure on to join Men in Sheds'
> The 74-year-old added: "Eventually they let us in, just one morning, eventually it became all the time, and now it's 50% women, and we absolutely love it."
> When the women were allowed into the workshop, members decided to keep a quiet room with a model railway display in it, just for men.
> "We [the men] escape now and again [to the quiet room] and have a chat and weigh things up."
>Andrew McNerney, 70, admitted there was initially some resistance to becoming a mixed group.
>He said: "There was apprehension, but in all honesty, it's turned out well.
>"We [the men] escape now and again [to the quiet room] and have a chat and weigh things up."
>But he added: "It's a lovely atmosphere, and it's been good."
I think maybe a key aspect is ensuring that all men, particular the ones that are classically unattractive (even repulsive) feel welcome as valued equals. Many women cannot countenance this and will try to shape group membership to be more agreeable; those women are free to leave. The rest are welcome to stay and at that point there shouldn't be any issues.
(Of course it goes without saying that actual harassment isn't tolerated, but being a smelly fat slob with a heart of gold doesn't count.)
It's unfortunate, but it happens.
I’ve seen a number a theories on why these spaces declined:
1. Social media became more engaging than actual hangouts.
2. Rising levels of cultural and ethnic diversity lead to lower levels of social trust and a subsequent exit from public spaces (see e.g. Robert Putnam).
3. Independent bars and cafes got bought out by chains that favored higher rates of table turnover.
4. Civil Liberties movement made America into an open air insane asylum that normal people avoid venturing into.
5. Wages not keeping pace with inflation leaves less discretionary income available to pay for these spaces.
6. Decline of fraternal orders, friendly societies, and veteran clubhouses which were often the owners of the bars and / or cafes.
7. A loss of a common religious practice creating a space for community, and in the case of evangelical Christianity a shift to a female driven congregation and preaching.
(Which, ultimately, is very sad for the women in the church, too, because a lot of them want to be married to a Christian man, but struggle to find one if only for a purely supply issue)
3. When I was younger we did item 1 above, but at Denny's late at night after everything shut down. The fact it was a chain didn't seem to impact the hang potential.
4. I grew up in Santa Cruz and it was always an insane asylum and had a homeless problem before having a homeless problem was cool, but it was also always a city full of people hanging out (don't know anymore was forced to move away).
You'd meet up for dinner at a local place that was usually pretty good, with 2-3 other people, mostly tech-adjacent. Dinners were pretty polite, a little awkward, mildly stimulating, but I never made real relationships from it. Seems like the same idea has emerged with https://timeleft.com.
I don't know. It seems like the best way to make friends is to force people to do some other task next to each other a few days per week and let things form organically after they are around each other for a few years.
You need a “shared struggle” to build tribal bonds. Some kind of us vs it or us vs them narrative. A simple get together where everyone spends money and has a good time is never going to accomplish that.
That is why immigrant groups, religious groups, professional groups, etc are more resilient, and successive generations that experience more independence end up splintering and otherwise loosening the bonds.
See also hazing in militaries/sports teams/“Greek” organizations/etc (not that I condone hazing).
This IMO is a part of the problem. I don't want more tech friends. Not that there's anything wrong with us, but I want more diversity in my friend groups. And I'm tired of many hangouts eventually devolving into chats about tech-related topics.
Obviously, that's not an absolute; clearly people yearn for human contact. But as you point out, there was a time when people participated in social activities and public life with a much higher degree of physical presence than they do now, and the popularity of apps which sidestep this indicate to me that people also desire not to engage with others so proximately.
If you want to have relationships with people, go to where people actually are, buckle your belt, set aside your dread of rejection or indifference, and introduce yourself.
This is still the norm in some places. When I was cycling through the Balkans, I was surprised how many people sit in public spaces, usually close to a kiosk, and play cards, throw dice, or just chatter
The problem mostly arises in big cities where a lot of young move for work, I'd call those socially sterile places.
You can totally pick a convenient cafe or pub and start hanging out there & inviting your existing friends. In time you'll start to recognize the other regulars, and you can make a point of chatting with them regularly (but not overstaying your welcome especially early on!), find out what they're interested in, offer & request small favors, crack jokes, eventually a bit of friendly competition, casual debate about mutual interests while intentionally trusting them enough to let them change your mind a little, etc -- all the things you'd normally do to build a social connection with another man. The upside and downside of a location-based approach is that it's a very weak filter. The other regulars may be people whom it's a real stretch to learn to connect with.
Location-agnostic social activities are typically focused on an activity or interest, e.g. people who want to hike, watch a movie, play a game or sport, do political activism, do community service, etc. So the social group comes with a filter attached that ensures you will have an easier time connecting with them. This is great! There are some downsides, too, but nothing serious.
It's not only about one's own identity, but also the other participants.
People still talk about it years later.
It's not hard to do if you have the space.
But you have to have the space.
pokemon go was a notable example that got people out of the house (and sometimes into adventure..)
Only then can your group start to develop favorite local places to hang around at.
> I bring this up because if you look at places that had lively social activities a few decades or a century ago, they were almost always a specific place.
Which is basically irrelevant, as you can come up with a similar example of pre-covid, during-covid and post-covid changes for how people hang out. People adapt pretty quickly.
> The neighborhood cafe where locals can stop by at any time and see other locals. The bar that everyone stops by after work twice a week.
I'm not sure these places really ever existed with such a stability as you describe outside of _really_ small towns. Like under 5000 pop towns.
These places exist today, in numerous major cities around the world. I live near one.
Place-based community is key, and can't be fixed with an app, or a service. Not long-term anyway.
1. You can't ever be real, if you are real, you are likely to be recorded doing something someone somewhere on the largest stage in the world (the public web) that someone will disapprove of, and someone else will raise their own profile by mining your impiety to prove their own concern and moral superiority.
2. Everyone is so mobile and connected online, they never have to break the ice and talk to those around them in the breakroom or geographical space, so all of our social skills have atrophied at best, or were never learned at worst. We know just enough civility to not get in fights, but we don't know how to easily break the ice or become acquaintances.
3. All the people that live in the cities are not close with each other, they didn't grow up together and don't go to church / rotary club / male-only spaces any longer because we are all supposed to pretend to be cool liberated yuppies in a hookup culture. Can't have real ties or any strongly held beliefs, that would make you religious (or worse, Religious on an actual religion), those people are bad. So I'm okay, you're okay, and we all smile. And inside, no real connections are ever made.
Not to mention testosterone levels dropping, schools being geared towards women, always co-ed spaces, and a breakup of younger and older generations because of cultural differences there too...not that the old people are always nice.
"they never have to break the ice and talk to those around them in the breakroom or geographical space" -> I've always talked to people at work and also I joined the most socially awkward hobby I've ever seen (historical sword fencing) and people are still very chatty. I also recently started volunteering at a wildlife rehabilitator and find myself just constantly chatting.
"Can't have real ties or any strongly held beliefs, that would make you religious (or worse, Religious on an actual religion), those people are bad" -> I've been friends with a lot of religious people but also non-religious people have strongly held beliefs (I hang out with a lot of vegans and I cannot imagine claiming they are afraid to publicly hold strong beliefs).
I think your post just goes to show how different mens' experiences can be because, while I'm sure a lot of men probably can connect with this, my personal experiences could not be more opposite. I think it depends a ton on the sorts of crowds you run in, it almost sounds to me like the people you meet are generally judgy and antisocial but I've found people I'm around to be generally friendly (though I've found many people are happy to chat but are often hard to actually organize to otherwise hang out since people in their 30s are busy and some of my friends have kids now).
Not for me, I have been to plenty of meetups in my city. If you're not liked or don't get along with the others, the worst that can happen is that you'll be politely ostracized. The paranoia about being publicly "cancelled" seems very overblown.
Yes, I talk to an older guy, probably mid-50s, at my gym. He completely stopped helping women at the gym or even giving advise. To my knowledge, no one ever accused him of anything, but he acknowledge that he absolutely have no experience talking to or otherwise interacting with younger women. He is terrified of doing or saying something wrong and lose access to the only gym in town, so he simply avoided women at the gym. He helps out the men, young and old, just not women.
There’s next to zero room for random events because travel becomes such a deliberate action. I can’t just pop into a cafe - first I need to find it and drive there.
Also our social signals are completely fucked up. Headphones and phones means that most interactions are off-limits. Probably a lot of these people do want to talk, but they’re not signaling it. And I’m not gonna be the one to bother a stranger.
That's not to say nobody takes pics but they do it in a quiet corner so they don't catch anyone by mistake. It makes it very respectful. The stickers are just a reminder so you don't just start flicking away when you're drunk. It makes everyone feel safer and more genuine.
2) I guess but nothing some quick ice breaking games won't fix
3) In a small town there's much more familiarity yes. But also a much deeper sense of being watched and judged. I can't live with that. Even the small city I lived in was too small for me. Everyone knows everyone's business and constantly gossip behind your back.
The nice thing in a big city is meeting new people and finding new places. And the variety. In a small town there's a lot of pressure to conform, eg often you're an outcast if you're not religious. I don't think they're bad but there's little acceptance of people who are different. So what do you do? Pretend. That's not real connection.
In a big city you can really be yourself because there's always others that are like you and you can meet them in like-minded places or events. And you can make real ties there. And even find out about other communities you might fit in.
I really hate going to male-exclusive places by the way. There's very few men I have a deep connection with (I'm male) because the whole BS thing that it's frowned upon to talk about feelings. "Men's weekends" just end up with too much beer, macho talk, shooting the shit and hanging in front of the TV watching boring sports or crappy porn. Nothing serious, fun or enlightening. That's my experience with those anyway. I find that exhausting and I always excuse myself from them now. I used to try to fit in but the others would know I hated it anyway so it was awkward.
I have much deeper relationships with lady friends. They're more open and less judgemental in general. I feel safer around them. So mixed events are a must for me.
How many situations are you in where group consumption of pornography is normal? I've been in very few.
This is a massive assumption, but maybe 'yourself' is limited to a standard deviation from the accepted mean.
1. I've never worried about this.
2. I regularly chat with strangers and acquaintances IRL, though I don't feel it does much to relieve loneliness or cultivate deep friendships.
3. I'm an atheist, but I don't think I've ever worried about being "religious" about something nor judged someone for being so.
I would analyze my own life as follows: friendship requires time spent together. I'm a parent with a full time job in a car centric city, which keeps me pretty busy. I may get one day or night a week to go be social or do hobbies or go to a rotary club or whatever. That's a limited amount of time, so there's a corresponding limit on how many friendships I can realistically maintain. Let alone start new friendships.
So I feel like "having it all" is not realistic. Everything takes time: working out, eating healthy, having friends, having a family, having a job, having a community, writing hacker news comments, and on and on. Most data shows that Dads now spend significantly more time with their kids than those of previous generations. So I think for people of my cohort (millennial dads) its just a case where we traded time with friends for time with family.
I lived under all of this, plus two immigrant parents with no community / role modeling, isolated in suburbia as a kid with a chronically online 20s.
Yeah that nurturing left its mark. Yet I learned to see it, and learn new patterns. In my 30s I have deep friendships. Younger, older, men, women, nb. Most are still shallow, my energy is limited, but even there sometimes we touch into depth when it comes to relationship or existential stuff.
Rewrite your programming.
It’s pop-sci, gate-keeping, always be hustling zeitgeist obfuscated by high minded toxic positivity.
Media post says there’s an epidemic. Academics come up with a theory of social science in a world where the Executive branch is blatantly manipulating the market. Fed and Congress manipulate employment options, COL through rates and tax code.
Predictions of 10-12 billion people by 2100 do not line up with real birth trends.
So much of our social truisms are made up cable TV hype that zapped the elders brains into anxious compliance. Narratives propagated in service to a random researchers rent and food money search.
Fatalistic towards a social concept is not the same as “launch the nukes, humans suck.” Non-Christians can not believe without going about shooting Christians. Not accepting someone’s dissertation is the same thing.
I'm real all the time. What am I missing here?
For what it’s worth, I remember being a closeted teenager, I remember feeling like I “couldn’t” be real - but that feeling was wrong. I just hadn’t figured that out yet at the time. It seemed too scary, too risky to be real. That’s probably one of the only pieces of advice I would have given my younger self if I could go back in time - come out sooner, come out before you’re ready, come out as bi before you know you’re gay, come out as curious/questioning before that even.
Force other people to deal with you as you are, instead of constantly working to make yourself into something that you think will be more acceptable to them. Take the risk of being real.
"Friends" who prioritize being angry and spiteful online over their meatspace relationships, sounds like.
> Not to mention testosterone levels dropping
Why should declining testosterone levels prevent men from socializing and making friends? Logically, it should be the other way around, right?
The only way to establish relationships is to be real - so of course if you believe you can’t be real, that’ll be a problem.
Relationships kick off and grow and solidify via socializing - so of course if you’ve let your social skills atrophy and believe you have no chance to practice and improve them, that’ll be a problem.
Your third point sounds like it’s really just a combination of your first two points, discomfort with being open and honest with others, and discomfort with intentionally socializing with strangers. Of course if you avoid those things to spare yourself the discomfort, you’re also avoiding the opportunity to make friends.
The rest of it (testosterone? Co-ed?) sounds like bullshit to me.
What I hear you being concerned about is: people don’t see the value in leaving their comfort zone in order to pursue what they want. Those fears you mention about not being real, and not knowing how to socialize, and not being around others, and being forced to go to schools for women (??) just sound like irrational fears to me. None of that stuff will kill you.
If being a man is anything, then surely, being a man is facing those kinds of situations and saying “this makes me uncomfortable but it has to be done, I am afraid but I will do it anyway.”
For me, that is the male loneliness epidemic, if such a thing even exists - it’s the unwillingness of some men to face their fears and do what needs to be done to make a connection with another human being.
> The only way to establish relationships is to be real
Personally, I found emotional dissonance when people tell me this phrase. For a long time, acting like myself has ostracized me from other people and built shallow relationships. It's only when I didn't act like myself and faked it until it became a habit did I build deeper friendships.
It's emotionally difficult when your natural way of acting is not accepted.
one of the unexpected consequences of social media is that people have been conflating being informed with being connected.
asking "what have you been up to?" was to be a nice easy opening into a conversation that lead to connection.
but thanks to broadcast updates on social media, your friends already know what have you've been up to, so they can delude themselves into thinking that they've maintained a relationship because they know superficial details.
but a relationship isn't built on updating a list of superficial facts. it's built by having a conversation
This is a huge reason (possibly the top reason) why I quit Facebook. I wasn't getting value from my "connections", and I figured everyone knew, more or less, what I was doing (& I knew what they were doing), so we didn't actually interact. I figured if I was no longer going to be friends with these people, I didn't want a facade. So I quit it, and I don't use the other usual suspects (Instagram, Snapchat, tiktok, etc.)
It's great. I actually have some honest to goodness friends IRL that I hug, with whom I talk about real things, etc.
I don't think this is really a big deal. "hey I saw you posted pictures from your trip. How was it" there, conversation started. Social media posts are basically all conversation starters.
Assuming you can even remember. I pretty quickly forget people's posts and updates.
It just takes too much self-discipline to break out of the internet consistently enough to build meaningful relationships without someone / something taking the initiative. I am sort of trying to replicate that at a larger scale by removing any friction to making plans.
Would love to hear your thoughts on if / what you think the solution is.
Well said. This is a massive problem.
People earn good money playing video games now (that wasn't the case in the 1980's) or streaming video games.
The sports heros children had while growing up used performance enhancing drugs in the 1990's.
> Not to mention testosterone levels dropping, schools being geared towards women, always co-ed spaces ...
If your childhood heros take the lazy way to success, why do we need to blame it on the other things? Using your brain is hard, as it turns out.
I've always detested parents who saw sports as the only path of success for their children. So often they were disappointed. If the parents spent time and sucked up and learned the math/science/etc their kids were learning, it may have been a better outcome for all involved.
Maybe I’m totally misinterpreting your comment but it kinda just seems like a diatribe unrelated to the comment you’re responding to.
I honestly blame residential zoning. The place we would get to know our neighbors was at the corner shop, bar a block away, salon and pizza shop downstairs. All that goes away when you're walking more than a couple blocks to do anything.
But living in a city, I've had shopkeepers who regularly see me set aside items that they know I'll like and make sure nobody buys it before I get a chance. I have neighbors that greet me every time they see me. Some chat me up. I've stopped in random hole in the wall restaurants and had other regulars (who I didn't know) randomly give me free stuff to welcome me to the community. People were willing to welcome new people in.
Now I know people will want to rush in and say, "That's not a city experience. My small town has all that and your small town just sucked!" To which I say, okay. That's your anecdote against mine. But cities are just as welcoming as people think small towns are. If you choose to stay in your room and grimace every time you do happen to go outside, yeah, it's lonely. But it's very easy to turn that around in a city with potential friends everywhere you look. And having been to cities around the world, I see loads of people chatting and laughing outside.
I've lived in SF for the last decade, and I really see a difference. I know it's not that much less urban than Brooklyn or Queens, but it's the zoning. I don't have a convenience store on my block, much less a pizza restaurant or salon. We have a local bar, and have a similar relationship with the folks there as we did in Brooklyn, which is nice, but again, it's hard to get to know the folks in your "commercial zoned district" because everyone is slammed together, and you don't see them every day. Even though I live three blocks away, I'm still a face on the crowd.
There's honestly a big difference between a shop on your street and a shop a few blocks away... because everyone in the neighborhood is a few blocks away.
You just described a country club, right down to the innate classism and exclusivity rules.
Similarly historically it wasn’t just elitist hangouts. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_men's_club
Like a bar, but you know that if they're there, they know a few people and aren't crazy.
Not only is a great show that touches on relationships and loneliness and modern alienation with a touch of magical realism and esoterica and alchemy but it focuses on a fraternal (in name only, women are members) order that your grandfather might have been a member of but have disappeared due to rising individualism, rising rents and displacement.
But there's no reason we couldn't start building them again. Not high end exclusive clubs like Soho House but just a place with books and a reasonable membership fee and a bar with cheap drinks for added revenue and occasional "open to the public" events.
There could be ones for software devs, ones focused on philosophy or great literature, ones for musicians or artists.
I've run the back-of-a-napkin numbers and even in expensive cities it doesn't seem impossible if your goal is to just break even and foster a community.
Only way I can see it working is if the government pays for social spaces. An extension of the library system but more focused on events and socialising rather than being a quiet space for reading.
I live in a big city where every member ends up knowing other member (male or female) even if your own Lodge is restricted to one sex. It's a lot of fun and I do believe it could be beneficial for a lot of incels.
Also, do check out the interactive map at the Huell Howser Archive, if you haven’t seen it [^0].
Sadly I discovered first hand why membership is declining (this lodge was a magnet for socially inept conspiracy theorists).
Where? I searched and didn't see any where free.
- Freemasons
- Odd Fellows
- Fraternal Order of Eagles
- Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks
- Loyal Order of Moose
Schultz envisioned Starbucks as a “third place” between home and work, fostering community and connection.
https://mulcahyconsultants.com/2023/12/14/howard-schultz-and...
They're really exclusive and they always have been. You and I would not get in, not now and not in the Victorian days. Even 'new money' is usually not ok. You really have to have gone to the right school and have the right family.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_kkryT4nOwA - Michigan Automotive Relic Society
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_gentlemen%27s_clubs_in...
NYC and London are both having a bit of a renaissance of new clubs being founded, although most of them are coed.
Me and my brother would go there after school to play some board games or dungeons and dragons during the weekends.
At least you can/could play cards, converse with your fellows or some randoms.
CAMRA's definition includes "Is open to the public without membership or residency" and a bunch more that amount to "does not necessarily serve food" to distinguish from restaurants.
Sports clubs are full of friends you can make. I'm close with alot of guys that I train with.
Try tennis, or lifting, or running, or golf. Do NOT go to DnD meetups and other low effort stuff. Exertion is what forms bonds.
Much of the NYT article can be explained away by the Gell-Mann effect. During most of human history it was hard to maintain multiple strong bonds anyway; long distance communication pre-internet was hard too. There are plenty of modern opportunities for finding friends based on interests: conferences, concerts, sports bars etc. How much of this discussion is a moral panic caused by imprecise notions which by definition cannot be described by hard data?
I haven't experienced what you described since I was socializing with programmers and scientists on the East Coast. Now most of the men I socialize with are artists (at least part time) and IT generalists in the Midwest.
Very true. Statistically men don't care about other men, period. Conversely they care about women or their daughters more than their sons. A lot of it is biological - meaning mean are the dispensable gender. The term 'women and children' is not a coincidence.
Bouldering provides an open space you can move freely in, with no inherent social hierarchy (no tutors, teachers), just people trying varying difficulties of bouldering routes. If someone can do a route you can’t, just ask them for tips, or if someone can’t do a route you can, ask if they want help, or cheer someone on when they do something difficult.
Bouldering provides lots of easy conversation starters, and as with all social situations, going on your own and showing vulnerability will always be endearing to others.
For one, bouldering is not great if you have a fear of heights or maybe some mobility issues due to a previous injury. It's then a massively painful and risky chore and not a pleasurable activity but requires you to be at 100% health physically and mentally in order to do anything beyond kiddy walls. Otherwise you can fall and injure yourself pretty badly. Granted, that's mostly on you, not the sport but still, it's not a universally approachable sport by everyone by any stretch. At least I never gotten to enjoy it no matter how much I forced myself to based on the hype of those around me and the internet.
> with no inherit social hierarchy
Not 100% true. This might be your conscious way of wanting to see things, but in reality, all sports especially in male groups are inherently competitive where a clear hierarchy gets formed which leads to either admiration or repulsion based on abilities and results, even if it's just subconsciously, but it is there and everyone is aware of it even if we choose to ignore it for the sake of equality and inclusion.
IMHO, team sports like football, handball, volleyball, tennis, ping-pong, various martial arts etc are far better for socializing because you actually have to partner with others and play against others, versus solitary like bouldering.
> I’d highly recommend going on your own as you will find opportunities to meet new people, and others will talk to you
I feel like this take is 100% based on regional social customs of where you live, and not on the sport. This might be my experience of the German speaking country I moved to but from the locals, nobody here ever starts making conversation to you randomly. People tend to go with their social group and not interact with strangers, while those who go alone tend to want to be left alone to practice and not get interrupted with small talk by other who are there to make friends.
Just like the gym, it's definitely not a way to make friends here, since people got here to work out, not have conversations with strangers.
Headphones for any sort of climbing - please dont do that and politely advise others to refrain from use while climbing, thats 1) frowned upon massively in whole community; 2) increases risk of something bad happening; 3) just a bit too arrogant, one doesnt do that in ie restaurant neither
"This is only for white guys in their twenties."
I don't know if that's intentional, but if I was in the location target market, I'd close the tab at that point.
Without exception the people who were my closest friends in high school didn't really keep in touch when we all went off to college. The friendships I made in college did not persist after graduation. There's a guy at work I had lunch with almost every day for years, he retired and that was the last time I saw him. There was a group of fathers I was friendly with because our kids were playing ball together on the same team. The kids got older and went their separate ways, and we really don't see each other anymore.
Maintaining friendships takes work if circumstances don't assist.
Might be largely the same for women, but it seems to me they tend to make more of an effort to keep in touch and keep getting together.
This is all just my experience so I could be way off I guess.
The split isn't married vs non-married, it's with kids vs without kids.
In my experience, she lied to you.
In therapy, For every 10 female clients, you get 1 male client, but most of the time that ratio is much worse.
Here in the UK we have Andy's mans club.
Its a male peer support group.
Its a great place to go.
Groups of men talking about stuff that impacts all men in their daily lives.
A safe, supportive space to talk about problems: Relationships, employment, divorce, debt, family, violence, anger, grief, loss and everything men are not that forthcoming to share.
Setup by the family of a young man who took his own life at 21 years old.
The one I went to had about 60 men turn up every week, they were split into smaller groups.
Men supporting men who have experienced the same shit life throw at you.
For what I feel, boy friends doing whisky and poker night in seemingly high end places, that sounds like a boring cliché. That’s not how I would make friends so this don’t look appealing to me at all. It doesn’t feel like a setting to be natural for me. It feels cold. It’s exactly how I imagine American superficial "friendships" (I know it’s a cliché but it feels reinforced here). I understand it may be more than that but that’s what is advertised.
But maybe that’s just a cultural gap on my side and since the service is US cities only, maybe it’s fitting well there.
It also feels like you exclude half your potential market by being male only. Nowadays, women also have hard time creating relationships.
Here's the thing -- by making it a 'club', and making prospective 'members' pass muster, you're just replicating HR at a big corporation. Friendship isn't so much about matching activities and interests as it is about finding someone whose sense of humor matches yours, or going through the same experience together. No matter how lonely I was, I would never audition for a 'club'. I'd much rather meet someone by just doing the activities I like, and noticing who else is around.
That consistent, shared experience what I'm trying to build. But I can appreciate the feedback that it comes across as "auditioning" as that's not the point. The goal is to get people in the same place on a consistent basis. I also believe that consistently hanging out with people who are generally interesting / agreeable is a lot more important than matching humor or hobbies.
How would you position this with that goal in mind, especially considering that some filtering needs to take place since many people won't necessarily click like you say. I'm not going to find someone whose humor matches mine by dumb luck.
back in the long-long ago when i was online dating, the biggest boon it provided was that it gave you a space where you knew that it was okay flirt and that your intentions would not be misunderstood. you never had to guess if it would be a creepy time/place to flirt. you never had to worry about your intentions being misunderstood as "just being friendly". if somebody was on this app/website, they were looking to flirt and if you approached them everybody was clear that you were flirting.
doing something similar with friendship could be great.
Each shed has its own policy and opening hours, best to look up your own local shed.
Then do the more unique events on a different day (and let members suggest/ organise events too).
Friendship is repetition with the same group. Make it easy on people by meeting at the same time, maybe changing venue within a small area.
A group chat can be the clubhouse these days provided everyone meets regularly. I'd revoke membership from frequent no-shows. You want to limit groups to around 70 people too. Some research says above that cliques form.
Those all still exist, right? Or did they die off with the WWII generation?
It was particularly difficult for me because I had been in the Army for 10 years and was used to having many male friends I was extremely close with.
All I was doing on the weekends was sitting on the couch and I hate sitting on the couch.
I decided to fight it by focusing on three aspects of my personality and finding activities that suited them.
First was my nerdy side and for that I joined my local amateur radio and astronomy clubs. The amateur radio club is all old guys, but there's nothing wrong with that-- I'm on my way there too. But there is field day, volunteer opportunities, and monthly talks. Same for the astronomy club but slightly younger. You don't even need an expensive radio or telescope, or radio telescope. A pair of binoculars and a cheap handheld radio will get you started. My astronomy club is focused on astrophotography. I will never dive into that nightmare of cost but I have purchased a star tracker and learned to take deep sky photos with a DSLR. Also, if you want 20 different opinions on how to do something, tell an amateur radio club about your plan to do something-- sometimes their input is useful. Sometimes.
Time commitment: one day per month per club and the occasional volunteer event. Financial commitment: if you have self control, minimal.
Next was my desire for mental and physical fitness and for that I, a hairy sweaty middle-aged man who couldn't touch his toes, joined a yoga studio and started going regularly. There aren't a lot of men who go to yoga but they do exist and after a couple of months we started to get to know each other. Now every single Sunday after Yin we go get coffee. We are all into scuba so we go on an annual retreat each year to somewhere with yoga and good diving sites. The teachers think it's adorable, our little yoga men's club. Now I can touch my toes. And do a headstand. edit: and I don't know if it is a quirk of my area but every dude who is in to yoga is also, apparently, in to clay pigeon shooting as well so we do that too.
Time commitment: six hours per week, plus retreats. Financial commitment: large.
Finally was my desire to serve my community. This led me to joining my local volunteer fire company, going through EMT training, and going through the firefighter training pipeline, doing driver and pump operator training, and this fall I'm starting the officer pipeline. Now I staff the ambulance, do CPR training for the community, do a shift on the engine a couple of times per month, am on the board, and MOST IMPORTANTLY drive the engine in every single parade I can. The only reason I am up so late on a Thursday is that this evening was forcible entry training so I'm still amped up a little from hammering on the door training prop for three hours.
Time commitment: don't ask, it's practically a second job. Financial commitment: none, volunteers in my area get property and income tax credits and all training and gear is free.
I don't need to do all three, any single one of these would be fulfilling enough to make me happy-- but my kids are grown and gone and I've decided that working myself to death isn't worth it so I have the time.
Now instead of sitting on the couch all weekend doing nothing I have to specifically schedule weekends and tell people to leave me alone so I can sit on the couch all weekend and relax.
And if I need help moving that couch there is no shortage of volunteers.
Your personality is different but I guarantee, no matter where you live or what you're in to, there is some group somewhere that is looking for you.
Also I would KILL (well not really, but maybe seriously injure) for a yoga club (or even class) for middle-aged/older out of shape males _only_.
I just love it when someone makes a description that is supposed to be off-putting but it's actually very sexy
>I've let many of my most meaningful friendships fade.
At least you acknowledge that part and aren't bitter at your friends that it is somehow their fault.
>but it doesn't feel like when I was in college and hung out with a crew of 10+ people on a weekly basis
And it won't, ever again. They'll get married, move away, have kids, whatever. Just like if you played a sport in high school, or were in the band, that same group of people will never be together doing that same activity again after the last time.
>curated events and meaningful connections for men who don’t want their friendships to atrophy post-college
Except you acknowledge above your role in the "atrophying" and while you can say you didn't/don't want that to happen, you still allowed it to didn't you?
>The goal is to get people in the same place on a consistent basis.
Isn't that called the gym, the range, the golf course, softball/kickball/pickle ball team, bar, etc? I've struggled (still?) with exactly this thing as well and don't have any good advice. I will say it feels related to the notion of wanting to have a significant other but never leaving the house, you gotta put the effort in. On the bright side I read an article about a couple that missed neighborhood connections so started having coffee on their porch on Saturday mornings (or some consistent day of the week) and eventually neighbors walking by started saying hello, then stopping to chat, then bringing their own coffee, and then it became this whole neighborhood thing. So I guess I'm saying don't lose hope that you can't change things in your situation.
Do you really develop lasting friendships on the course or in rec league sports? I just haven't had that experience and the popularity of those activities is sky rocketing (see: running clubs) while the problem doesn't seem to be getting any better.
Little about me just for kicks - I'm early 30s, married, recently moved to Boston with a great tech job and a really solid group of friends from college that I unfortunately don't live close to anymore. I've made some good friends since moving here but it has all been through someone taking a herculean level of initiative to plan things and invite people to stuff. I want to lower that friction to have consistent IRL interactions with interesting people - whoever those people might be for a given person.
Also if I don’t hear a single MTG Commander game come out of this project we have all failed as a species.
I'm in my 40s and in my 20s (shortly after college), I created a meetup group and regularly met with a group of 10-12 people weekly (parties, hangouts, dinner, activities).
We are all married now (some with kids) and now meet once/month and the meetup group disbanded before covid. As I've gotten older, I realized that some friends don't make it to a new phase of life. Sometimes because it was a friendship of proximity (like a neighbor or co-worker) and other times because you are doing something different with your life.
When people get married, change jobs, start families, move away... then it actually requires a solid amount of effort to maintain those friendships. For some people they really value the friendships enough to put in that work, and for others they don't (and when they do, it has to be mutual for it to work out). The sad part is when people value the friendships, but don't understand that shift, and what's required, and those friendships fizzle out.
I still maintain friendships with a 10-15 people who no longer live near me, and who are doing different things with their lives, and are in very different circumstances than I am. The oldest of these friendships are pushing 30 years now. It's doable, but everyone needs to be on the same page as to what they expect from and what effort they're willing to put into the friendships.
We're working through R. Kent Hughes "Disciplines of a Godly Man". https://a.co/d/7jeAATr
Male friendships are valuable. I either walk and get coffee, or we make breakfast every week. It started as three guys and averages 6-8 now, and some of our kids have become best friends. We also do a book club and some less frequent full family events.
I DO think social isolation, white boys and men in the US (and elsewhere? I have no idea), and voluntarism have confronted challenges for years. Robert Putnam's Bowling Alone that came out in 2000, the Do Good Institute report on voluntarism (https://dogood.umd.edu/sites/default/files/2019-07/Where%20A...) and the recent work of Scott Galloway and friends on boys are examples of investigations of problems, challenges, and solutions.
Having been in the public policy world for 20+ years, government may be part of the solution (okay, not in this climate). But more often, it is part of the problem. Government is fickle about consistent and long term funding and evaluation and nonprofit organizations may not actually do work in a way that helps (meaning, is effective).
Individuals and communities often step up to do something, often anything, that may address a need. Participation and reach may wax and wain and I think that's ok. It really is the nature of the beast. Best case, an effort fades away and there is already another underway or standing in the wings.
The bottom line for me is that efforts are made. As a policy wonk and social worker, I'd very much like for efforts to be grounded in some sort of theory of change or best practice or something. But since I'm not a funder or a wielder of power, I don't get to make this decision.
I think technology is antithetical to the goal you are working toward. Instead, start a local group and have a "all cellphones go here" basket when members enter so that when they are there, they are fully engaged and not doom scrolling the entire time.
I very much agree with this being its own thing independent of Big Social Media. We need more of that. Too many of these types of things have the flaw that their only online presence is a Facebook group, which implicitly excludes me and anyone else who doesn't have nor want a FB account.
On the other hand, some people are shamed to admit this point, as a result, joining this kind of club will make them look more shamed. It's just nature of humanity.
I think there should be a better idea for the second type of people.
Basically, the Friendship Paradox https://www.wikiwand.com/en/articles/Friendship_paradox
And my apartment building is home to some 500 people, all of whom are quite normal. People borrow a spoon of yogurt or a USB cable, or ask for a jump start, or help with plumbing. It all feels very normal and about the right scale of human interaction. Considering all that, and that people generally report happiness, and that these things come and go without success we must conclude the whole thing is illusory like so many other Complaints About The Modern World.
Signed up, but despite asking if I lived in one of three cities and selecting "other", it seemed to stick me in some event without a location?
There could be room for another app, e.g. Meetup has gotten particularly money hungry. If this is just a prototype I guess good luck!
I don't know what you hope to achieve with such a limited set of answers.
Boy Scouts, DeMolay and other boys youth orgs got their start in the 1910’s, joined by young men without fathers who were lonely due to their life situations. Many just need someone to take their hand and show them how to break the ice.
Now we have about 40 members (for a town of 500, that's pretty damn good).
We get together to do volunteer and fund raising events. But mostly we meet twice a month to eat supper and bullshit/play cards/pool/darts.
It's awesome.
I think we're going to bring back the formal dances they used to have in the 40's-60's. I think that would be fun.
I’m in my mid-30s, relatively successful, educated, friendly, outgoing, and so on. When I think of many men in my life, I am there for them emotionally and mentally. I’ve been there when times were good and bad.
But, I have no interest in this even a little. If I wanted more male friends, it’d be trivial. I workout all the time and there’s tons of dudes from my gym who want to go out practically every night (currently live in nyc). There’s an extreme amount of men in my hobbies who are looking for new close friends. I’ve been invited to numerous outings and so on.
Yet, this is where I wouldn’t be a good fit, I cannot be bothered because I just want a family and I’ve been deeply single for four years without any hope of a relationship. For me, the loneliness epidemic is more to do with how deeply single I am and how little women want to love me. That’s my whole concern. I moved to nyc just to be able to run into women because I had no ability to do that back in SF. My friends in nyc try to invite me to shit all the time but I refuse because it’s just gonna be men hanging out and I don’t care. I’ve even gone as far as not working for three years and I just turned down an offer to work at Meta today because I don’t want to become an incel like half of the men in the tech world back in SF are. I’ve given up so much money over these last few years all just so that I could focus on my own startup - having a family. Failed miserably at it too like most founders but still trying.
Let me also add, I'm a good 20 years older than you. Don't get too wired into a vision of "family" because if and when it does happen, it might not work out the way you imagine. It sure didn't for me.
Focus on being content and happy with yourself, and then worry about meeting someone.
You are! A more complete person than myself... and people won't leave me alone! When I hear "Loneliness Epidemic" I can't help but feel it's projection. They're lonely [or not making enough money] and want to convince me, too.
Your relationship search is a good example. People take self-exclusion personally. Why?
A bit of a tangent, but I'm disgusted with the prevalence of Alcohol. I've smoked with homeless people outside of concerts. I don't drink with my coworkers. You might be surprised which has been more of a problem.
Simply imagine a species of animals that are social, but then apply evolutionary pressure to convert them into solitary ones. This is what we're experiencing now as a humanity.
Another comparison is the obesity epidemic. It just filters out people who are unable to control their appetite.
I'm also the person a lot of old - and not-that-old - ladies will suddenly speak to at the bus stop. The weather, the waiting time, or whatever other subject that comes up. Again, I don't know why me.
There's also other situations lone strangers -shopping, the park, whatever- will start talking to me. I do try to pet dogs sometimes and that sometimes leads to people talking to me but I'd say that's less surprising so it doesn't count. Once, years ago, a guy just greeted me when coming out from the subway and I was a bit confused because I didn't recognise him. So I asked and he told me that no, we hadn't met; we just passed each other sometimes when going in/out of the subway so he thought it would be nice to greet me. I smiled and appreciated the gesture. After that sometimes we would greet or at least nod. It didn't go further than that and after a while our schedules probably shifted a bit but it was a nice thing. Strangers you see routinely. It seems polite to greet them. And nice, a gentle gesture.
My impression is that there are many, and many of them crave just being able to talk to someone for a little while. Sometimes, particularly older ones, mainly ramble almost uncontrollably. They need to talk. In a way it used to break my heart seeing that. Now I don't think much about it, it's ok; I just talk for a few minutes and smile, because smiling is nice and they smile back and it's warm.
I don't initiate such conversations but I reckon I may somehow propitiate them by looking or nodding/greeting politely or something. Maybe it's that. But I've never been an extrovert and often I'm wearing headphones and have to take them off when they start because I didn't hear them at first. So, it's not like I'm particularly approachable, I'd say. Not handsome but neither ugly -I hope-. For a while I was a bit overweight. Now I'm clearly underweight but I don't think it shows so much that anyone would think I'm sick or dying or anything. I dress quite normal, have an about 1-1.5 inch beard, and in general I'd say nothing in my appearance particularly says "talk to me". But people often do. shrug
In any case it feels nice seeing those people smile for a while. Particularly those older people that tell you about some mundane stuff that means a bit to them. Sometimes their stories carry the implications of some children or grandchildren they don't see too often and miss. Sometimes it's much more personal, health issues or other problems; and it still surprises me a bit how candid people can be with personal stuff. Other times it's just literally whatever, small things in their lives like the groceries they just bought or are going for or really anything. There was this nice old lady I used to see catch the bus to avoid a sloping street. She repeated often the same story about how she was going for bread and "if I see the bus approaching I take it" because the slope often left her quite tired. Once I noticed she'd fallen and bruised her face. She was fine, she said, but it feels nice that someone notices when something happens to you. I rarely go to that bus stop any more, since I now try to walk as much as possible, so I haven't seen her in more than a year. But she was from the neighbourhood so I may pass by her one of these days. Maybe.
I know this may not mean much in their lives but I think it's a nice thing. It may brighten their day even just for a few minutes. Or maybe I'm one of the few people at all they talk to that day. Who knows. It may make a difference. Most probably not, but anyway...
I've sent you an email to have a chat and share some ideas!
I’d much rather make friends where I can just show up and have a nice time with someone based on a shared interest (like my local cycling club, where I’ve met a few folks I hang out with regularly… or even social dance clubs for those into ballroom or Latin dance). Meetups are obviously too transient, so I join clubs with consistent regular attendees.
But maybe there are people this program will resonate with. Obviously, exclusive invite-only clubs like fraternities and country clubs are popular and I know many who joined, and even met life long friends there.
…I guess, just not me. I probably have some weird outsider-exclusion-from-popular-kid-club complex that is well beyond the scope of this comment :)
The same reason I won’t show up with a navy blazer to a yacht club social event to beg sponsorship from some commercial real estate agent with a chip on his shoulder because he has a quarter-zip polo from the club store and a member number like S29 he can use at the bar.
That being said, good luck with the company, I hope it is successful and you meet a lot of great people.
We have so little in common interest wise, but we bonded over just being in the same place repeatedly. I'm not in contact with anyone from my engineering program. That says a lot to me about shared interests as a (non-)driver of lasting friendships compared to shared EXPERIENCE, but I'm just one person.
Obviously "frat culture" has an extreme negative connotation, but I will just say that not every fraternity is full of gym bros... they exist for every type of guy and I truly think the socially awkward guys I know who joined fraternities made significantly more meaningful relationship than the cool, good-looking guys who didn't.
Stanford never got into this. Stanford's alumni association is mostly a front for the "development office", the alumni donation extraction operation.
Silicon Valley had the Capital Club in San Jose (closed). There's something called the Alexandria in San Carlos, which has a restaurant and a gym.[2] Cafe Borrone in Menlo Park is a hangout of sorts, and it's next to the British Bankers Club, which used to be a pub but upgraded to a fancy restaurant.
There's happy hour at the Sand Hill Sundeck, at 3000 Sand Hill Road.[3]
There's Hacker Dojo [4] But after two moves and COVID, it's a shadow of what it once was.
Those are places you go to make deals, or at least talk to people who do deals.
[2] https://www.invitedclubs.com/clubs/the-alexandria-san-carlos...
I'm may not be the target audience if this is recently post-college, but the thing that strikes me is these activities feel a bit performatively male.
I guess my hot-take is there are certain things that people genuinely love (e.g. improv, dnd, video games, rock-climbing) perception be damned, and there are certain things that people do because they are socially acceptable stereotypes for males: drink craft beer, whiskey, poker, grilling, sports? And that it's about 20x easier to make real friends from the former than the latter.
My experience has always been if somebody says "Come over for poker night," it's gonna be much more awkward than if somebody says "Come over because I'm gonna play video games on the couch and smoke a joint and it'd be fun to have somebody to chat with while I do that." [I'd be curious to hear where other people fall on that topic]
Anyways, not to discourage your current tack, nor even say you should do a blunts and video-games event, but I just think some of the activities on the website seem branded to a very narrow type of guy (business majors? for lack of a better stereotype)
Brah that's just your experience. The activities that you described as `socially acceptable stereotypes for males` haven't been popular for longer than any ancestor you've spoken to has been alive as a conspiracy theory.
Some people legitimately like these activities and have the same reaction to `improv, dnd, video games, rock-climbing` as you do to the stereotypically male activities
Your girlfriend/wife would like a word.
FTFY. Gay men have many more community options. Not sure why, but we just do togetherness inherently.
Glad to see this though. It can only be solved by the people in the epidemic but it only takes the effort of a handful of organizers in the community/town/city to jumpstart events and hit critical mass. I’ve organized things on meetup and it takes persistence. Good luck!
How much of that is motivated by dating and hooking up?
You are solving a non-existent problem.
There is no "male loneliness epidemic". If anything, there might be a "human loneliness epidemic". This is not a DEI angle on the problem.
Times have changed, societies have changed. But our expectations have not.
It is literally time to grow up to the new reality.
I think Professor Galloway, whom I am generally a fan of, is spreading a narrative based on selective statistics.
If men feel like they can't open up to their friends because they're afraid they'll be ridiculed, that's on them. Get better friends.
I hate to have to be the one to say it, but speaking from my mid-forties, what you are experiencing is called "entering your 30s." If you try to sell "fix loneliness" to a "not committed yet to growing TF up" market you're cooked.
Ironically, I'm probably pretty close to who you think you want to hear from and speak to. But you can't justify my time and wouldn't hear me in any case. Find something else to sell and someone else to sell to.
To me this doesn't feel like some cheesy attempt to fix loneliness with tech. It’s just creating a space for something that’s clearly missing for a lot of people. Writing it off feels like part of the problem..
Happy to hear what you have to say - email is in my bio - although I doubt we'd have a meaningful conversation if you write me off as trying to sell something instead of taking the more gracious interpretation that I want to help other guys build strong friendships (and build them for myself).