The days of Nvidia proprietary drivers being a safe bet is long gone. Especially for any sort of Wayland desktop, but it still applies to X11.
Intel drivers should be good as well, since they use the same Mesa code base.
With the ROCm stuff no longer depending on AMD Pro then there is not going to be any reason to step away from the default GPU drivers provided by your distro, provided they are relatively new.
While I am sure that there are still going to be professional-grade proprietary apps that recommend Nvidia... for most of us the only reason to actually go and choose Nvidia on Linux is because of CUDA. And, personally, I would rather lease time on the cloud or have a second GPU work horse PC separate from my desktop for that.
Unfortunately Nvidia is, by far, the most popular option for Windows users. Over 4:1 ratio according to Steam statistics.
So most new Linux users are still going to have to suffer through dealing with their GPU drivers.
They use the same front end but that says very little about the quality of the overall driver. Performance is mostly determined by the shader compiler and other hardware-specific parts which obviously differ between Intel and AMD.
Given both Framework and NVIDIA's checkered histories around Linux driver support, I see no reason to revisit that, but it is interesting to see the voices in this thread with positive NVIDIA experience.
Maybe its just a problem with older Nvidia gpu's, but its not a gamble I want to take
On the OP page, it says:
> Pick up all these upgrades from our Marketplace to extend the life of your existing Framework Laptop 16.
I'd be more concerned about what I'd be able to do with an older 16-inch mainboard, as the 13-inch has the Cooler Master case options.
Still rocking the Intel Tiger Lake 13-inch here, mixed Windows / Ubuntu workflow, loads of RAM.
The only issues you may run into if you distro doesn't include the firmware. e.g. This was the case with Debian 11 and you had to enable the non-free repo.
The only other problem you can conceivably have is card isn't supported by the kernel because it is too new. This can be fixed by upgrading the kernel. In Debian you can use a backports kernel, I am sure there are similar options in other distros.
When I was using my old 1080Ti, I had constant issues with the NVIDIA drivers. Acceleration didn't work on the second screen sometimes. There was some magic setting that would unset itself.
Mobile users suffer more problems then people with dedicated desktop GPUs, but it still gotten a lot better.
The one thing to be careful about AMD GPUs is that for most GPU OEMs AMD is just a after thought. So they get sub-par QA and heatsinks compared to their more popular Nvidia models.
It is best to go with card makers that only sell AMD GPUs, like Sapphire, PowerColor, and XFX. I am partial to Sapphire.
Compared to AMD and Intel, NVIDIA is very much not an 'out of the box', or stable experience.
Anyway, in case someone was interested it seems the code itself is cited as MIT, however it has a "when it becomes a Linux .ko it becomes GPLv2" clause https://github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-kernel-modules/blob/580.7... and they do go out of their way to say "lol, needs binary blobs" https://github.com/NVIDIA/open-gpu-kernel-modules/blob/580.7...
That XFree86.run has always struck me as "you're gonna what*?"
Now that I have it working I see random glitches here and there that I can't pin down. Some Electron apps I have to turn off GPU acceleration or they won't get any windows showing up - they launch, the process exists, they're in the dock as active, but the window doesn't appear at all.
Getting a new laptop from work to replace this one and I'm really hoping it won't have nvidia hardware - or at least, if it does I can disable it and the Intel GPU will work fine also.
Something more niche is that I also enjoy the mouse buttons above the trackpad, I can move with the thumb and click with a finger.
I'm typing this comment on a first gen framework 16 keyboard. It's the same layout as the second gen in OP, where PgUp/PgDown are bound to fn+KeyUp fn+KeyDown and Home/End are bound to fn+KeyLeft fn+KeyRight.
I actually prefer the bindings over dedicated buttons since if I need to use home/end, I'm probably also going to need to go to the previous/next line with the up/down keys.
This is such a lame response to valid criticism.
Key remapping is not a feature that you need hardware support for and neither are macros - both can be done in the OS and/or user-space software. Different prints on key caps are also not important at all since you shouldn't need them in the first place and hardly a response to someone being unhappy with the physical keyboard layout. So basically you're saying that because Framework already provides the easy parts that the user could already do in software now no one is allowed to complain about the physical layout that users cannot alter.
The gaps let you use the the function keys by feel rather than looking at them. They tend to be mapped in debuggers so hitting the wrong key is a big deal.
I actually don't mind the smaller arrow keys as again, they make it easier to drive by feel rather than by looking.
Think about it... Replacement hinges that separate the upper and lower shell by an extra 1/8-1/4" plus a thicker bezel to fill that gap. Suddenly (at the cost of a thicker laptop, for those of us who don't mind) you have extra space under the screen for longer key throw, contoured key caps, trackpoint, arrow keys that overlap the lower deck to allow a proper inverted-T layout, etc. Maybe even possible to retrofit old ThinkPad keyboards in there.
Hey, I can dream, can't I?
This logic is why I like the tiny arrow keys. I find it pretty easy to move my pinky over and tap one of those keys. With full size keys, I find that doesn't really work.
Still on the lookout for anything that’s not chiclet based, but they literally don’t exist.
https://dell.alienwarearena.com/alienware-debuts-the-worlds-...
1200$ https://www.bestbuy.com/product/gigabyte-aero-x16-copilot-pc...
I literally can buy 2 of the Gigabyte laptops for the same price.
Even if I can swap out some parts, odds are it's still easier( and cheaper) to just buy a new competing laptop ever 3 years.
If your motivation is "the environment" you can always just donate your old laptop , give it to a friend, etc. "Gaming" laptop might as well be for code for cheaper , but it has RGB and your co-workers might look at you weird.
If you care about environment make regulator force companies to make repairable and upgradeable hardware. That could actually have an impact.
Putting burden on consumer choices is one of the biggest hoaxes of modern capitalism.
Both are wear parts.
I'm typing on this laptop right now. I brought it for 450 USD on sale. https://www.bestbuy.com/product/asus-vivobook-s-14-14-oled-l...
Aside from Linux driver issues, shame on our community for downplaying this, it's an amazing computer. I swapped in a 2TB SDD, and I'll be using it for years.
If I drop it or do something stupid, I'm out 450$. Even a decent Macbook is only going to be about 1500$.
At 3000 Euro, 3500 USD I'd be afraid to take it out of the house, at which point a desktop is going to be significantly cheaper, better, easier to fix and less accident prone.
I have tried several laptops, and nothing has even comes close in the last ten or so years.
I am hoping you might have some unique insight into this!
PS: Framework Laptop 16 looks great, will order one later this year and then get a GPU with more vram whenever available in future.
https://www.gitclear.com/blog/linux_touchpad_update_december...
https://frame.work/ro/en/marketplace?compatibility%5B%5D=lap...
This link may work better for you: https://frame.work/laptop16
The only reason for me going with the Dell Premium 16 instead of framework, is that I need my 1920px screen width at 200% scaling.
Such a shame, the Framework is better in so many other ways.
And if not, could you elaborate?
It would also be a huge benefit to use a replaced mainboard as a homelab base WITH ECC support in the future.
Same goes for the Framework Desktop, which features Strix Halo without ECC support, whereas ECC IS possible with Ryzen AI MAX+ 395+ PRO (e.g. HP Z2 Mini G1a).
Are you coming out with another coolermaster case for the 16 mainboard?
I want to make a custom dock with fans to force more cooling over the radiators. Could it be possible to "unlock" the 100W TDP of the 5070 in firmware or are there other hardware limitations like the interconnect?
Was adding the USB C power input on the GPU necessary to get full power? I see in the specs on github that VADP_GPU can take 100W into the mainboard and VSYS_GPU can supply 240W to the GPU. Are there any tradeoffs powering the system from the back ports vs the GPU?
Was the previous version of the AMD GPU not sending the display signal directly to the panel via the edp mux but instead via the igpu? If not is that something you can update in firmware? Can you publish how this was done so someone can make an oculink expansion board with displayport input?
Thanks to everyone at Framework for making such awesome hackable products!
Is the firmware identical for the models that ship with Windows and those that ship with Linux?
How well does Linux work out of the box? What kind of small glitches can a Linux user expect?
For the new generation, we'll list those as we get closer to shipments.
Yes. The firmware upgrade processes can differ, but there's no difference in firmware, and you can buy a Framework kit with no OS provided.
Would u consider setting up an assembly plant outside the US to sell to to customers internationally? I’m in Australia.
Is there an ongoing effort on solving this?
It even crashes firefox itself, and the android UI.
Unfortunately I am unwilling to give further details except that it is firefox on a very reasonable Android device.
Why can no laptop manufacturer even make this an option?
The type that doesn’t move at all and simulates a click with haptics on the other hand I find just fine. MacBooks do this of course but there’s also a few x86 laptops equipped with pads like that.
So in my opinion, mechanical clickpads should disappear entirely and laptops should offer two options: a static haptic clickpad and traditional trackpad with buttons.
How are they slower/impossible?
Because it’s a variation of both the case and the internals that brings a higher failure rate, more dust ingress, more moving parts, and, most importantly, would rarely be chosen.
> They are so much slower,
They are objectively faster because you can click anywhere rather than moving a finger to a button or keeping one finger always on the button.
But only because they are all worse than Apple's version. What you really want isn't a touchpad with buttons, is a "clickpad" that doesn't suck. And as far as I know only Apple makes them.
[0] https://frame.work/products/framework-laptop-13-mainboard-ki...
From a value proposition, it seems good. Our group definitely goes through keyboards and mainboards from spilled tea at least annually it seems, but AppleCare is just a no-brainer, and away we go.
I still drive on my original M1 at home without complaint, and use my M3 at work. Anyone have the early Frameworks still in daily use? How are they?
When I first got a 12th-gen Intel mainboard FW13 with the original 55Wh battery running stock Ubuntu, the battery life at best was <6 hours. Since moving to the 7040 AMD mainboard, the upgraded 61Wh battery, and Fedora, I've not run out of battery in an 8-hour workday. I've also got an Ultra 7 155H mainboard with the same work performance with respect to battery life.
I can't speak to the FW16s with 85Wh batteries, but I also don't consider them as being designed with either work or battery life as priorities.
Framework doesn't provide official optimized Linux power management profiles. Community profiles make up some of the difference, but if untuned battery life out of the box is a priority to you, and if you also don't care about the process of replacing its battery, just get a Mac. If Linux is an additional priority to you, get an old M1 or M2 MBP with a low battery cycle count and run Fedora Asahi Remix on it.
Is this difficult? Would it not behoove them to do this and get better work-hour scores? I would imagine it would be part of making sure the screen can dim, touch pad works, etc in terms of "building a quality product".
I dont mean this in a snarky way, I just figure if you're making it and know the products in it, couldn't you optimise a power profile for it? Or perhaps they "know" it has an AMD/Intel processor in it, but that isn't enough to really do a worthwhile job and it's more on AMD/Intel to do it?
Build quality of the MBP is better. The machine feels more solid. The battery life is better, although to be fair, I run Linux on the Framework so the hardware itself isn't the only difference.
The Framework 16 wins hands-down when it comes to ports, one of my biggest pain points with any Apple laptop in the last 10 years. It has six of them and I can mostly arrange them according to my needs. In the rare cases where I plug it into an external monitor, I swap out one of the USB ports for an HDMI port. If I'm using more older devices than normal, I replace the USB-C ports with USB-A ports. I say "mostly" here because not all ports work in all positions.
The repairability and openness of the Framework laptop were the big draws for me and it delivered well on both counts. I'm happy with it.
Framework has pretty minimal keyboard deck flex and other measures of build quality that actually impact usage. I think it fares better than a good chunk of PC competitors like the ThinkPad T14.
The only thing Framework really needs is a haptic trackpad and it'd be pretty much there in terms of the build feel. I also like how Apple puts the air intakes on the side rather than the bottom where they're frequently blocked by a lap or a soft surface.
Honestly it'll probably last me another 5 years before I need to switch out the mainboard. I don't do anything intense like gaming.
Went and installed Slimbook Battery and left it at default settings and got several more hours of battery life without having to close everything. Had to reinstall later and just installed TLP and left it at default settings and still getting far better battery life.
Not sure why Ubuntu is so cripplingly bad out of the box when it's so easy to fix, but if you haven't tried that it might be worth checking out.
I'm happy with my framework 13 four years later. I might switch to the stiffer hinge and/or a matte screen in the future. Might try one of the AMD mainboards in a few generations when they're cheaper and put my current mainboard into another case...
Edit: FWIW I bought a macbook air M1 a year after getting the framework 13, and ended up selling it. The battery life on the macbook air was significantly better, but I can still spend an entire workday in the park with the glossy framework 13 without needing to recharge so the extra battery life from the M1 didn't really have a ton of value for me.
This was some seriously infuriating bullshit. I remember them blaming it on intel on the forums, even though no other laptop had the issue.
In my case, replacing the battery with a random aliexpress ine fixed the issue, and they could have just said so.
Really made me lose trust in the company.
The battery life is good enough that I never worry/think about it. The keyboard is fantastic. The trackpad is meh, not terrible but not MacBook great—use a mouse or vim :)
Unfortunately I do not think anyone comes remotely close to Apple in the battery life department. I have an M2 Air that I really adore, but after driving Linux on my workstation for the last 2 years I want to explore Linux laptops. All my research has concluded that if you care about longevity, a Mac is the only way to go.
The MacBook has a better trackpad, stronger case, better battery life, far better display. But the ThinkPad has NixOS running perfectly (I had Asahi on my Mac Studio, but with the lack of Thunderbolt and not so great battery life I don't want to run it on a MacBook). At any rate, the Mac is going to be better, but I have to sacrifice a bit for tech-feudalism-free computing (Mac is slowly becoming more and more closed).
I can easily do 10-12 hours on my M4 MBP. My framework AMD 13 can do maybe half that if I have it on power save mode and I don't do anything heavy.
The keyboard is good, speakers are meh, track pad is not as good as Mac. Form factor is good.
Additionally, and non-trivially, the laptop's battery life is not good, and it drains very quickly on suspend. I have taken to leaving it plugged in when not in use. This may be a Linux issue, but still.
I agree with you: the idea is a good one, but my experience with the company has been not good.
1 - https://guides.frame.work/Guide/RTC+Battery+Substitution+on+...
This is awesome though, and exactly the sort of thing one buys a Framework for.
> the laptop's battery life is not good
Mine is great, I share a single USB-C cord among all my laptops (of which I have despairingly too many) and I often use my Framework all day while forgetting it's not plugged in. (Fedora, if the OS matters.)
Drain on suspend in particular has largely been resolved on newer mainboards, firmware, and kernel updates, though I don't have an 11th-gen Intel and haven't run Ubuntu for a long time.
Kernel updates fixed this on my 12th-gen, firmware updates fixed it on my 7040, and my Ultra 7 155H never experienced this issue.
I'm very happy with my framework!
In the end, I think the Framework is worth it if you have a desire to support the company and the mission, but I think most people should go refurbished if they only care about value.
I want something that can run an Linux, IDE and some tooling that I can stick in my bag and not care too much about it so I buy refurbs. Often there isn't much wrong with them other than minor cosmetic damage.
I always go for Dell Business or Lenovo Thinkpads. There are plenty of spare parts available online. They typically work well with Linux & BSDs. I can get a laptop that was a flag ship a few years ago for like 1/3rd the price and often it is more than good enough.
Buying a brand new Framework tend to be more expensive then a ~ Chinese Laptop.
*New vs Upgrade*
In general, you can sell a second hand laptop at around 50% of the original price, about 2 years down the line (assuming you did not damage it).
So a new upgrade will be 50% cheaper. For that you tend to get (depending on the generation jump), more storage, more memory, potential better screen, faster CPU.
While a Framework upgrade may mean you gain a new Motherbord+CPU for the price of that equivalent laptop. But here you run into another economic issue. Sure, you can transplant your 2100mhz memory but what if 2660 is the standard. So you CPU upgrade is going to get throttled.
*Changes*
What if memory changed with a inner generational. So now that memory you had before is useless. You can recover some value, but are still forced to buy the generation memory.
That wifi card, 5e ... great, but now your getting maybe 6 standard in a new laptop.
Also do not forget, your laptop will have more wear and tear vs a new device. Keyboard may become a issue. Your oled screen may have reduced coloring after 1 or 2 generation of usage (oleds suffer from high screen brightness, and laptop are more often in locations like outdoors that run at 100% brightness).
*Compatibility*
What about compatibility? Maybe you had a Intel based Framework laptop, with a intel wifi card. The problem is, some intel wifi cards need specific intel instructions onboard the CPU. So now you upgraded to AMD but your wifi card becomes useless.
Yes, a new laptop is rolling the dice regarding defects or other issues. But so is upgrading a framework. The problem is, your getting all the not so fun parts of a desktop's upgradability, without the cost saving potential of a desktop.
*Resell issue*
Selling your framework memory, wifi card etc will not be a big issue. But the moment you want to sell a older part, now what? Great that you upgraded from 1080p screen to 4k by yourself, but who is going to buy your 1080p screen? Your at best looking at a small market of framework owners, and a even smaller market of framework owners that need a new screen (maybe to replace a damaged one).
What about the bezel changes? What about the keyboard? What is your buyers market. Sure, maybe you can sell your old MB/CPU but even that is a VERY specialized market of people, who maybe need one to repair their framework, or want a custom nas (cheaper to just buy a mini-pc from the dozens of Chinese brands) or the few people who run a very old framework mb, and upgrade (what about their selling 2+ generation old MB/CPU combo).
*Buyers*
Framework really is for people who do not like to change laptops / get used to new ones, and who have no issue taking in the extra costs of those upgrade potential. But then again, i see people running macbooks M1's still (darm good laptops), for 5 years. They did not need the upgrade path.
It really depends on you, what you really value. But from a economic point of view, your not going to be cheaper in the long run with a framework, and that is not the selling point also.
It depends on what you want.
About a week ago I got a new 15" laptop with a Ryzen 7 6800H (8 cores / 16 threads) | Radeon 680M | 32 GB of RAM | 1 TB SSD | 1080p IPS panel for $570 USD. That 680m is an integrated GPU that can use up to 8 GB of your system RAM for its VRAM.
I put Arch Linux on it and it's quite nice. Things are very snappy.
A Macbook Air is almost 4x the price with the same memory / storage or 2x if you're ok with 16 GB of memory and a 256 GB SSD. No doubt the Air is going to be lighter, have better battery life and be quieter but this other one isn't too bad. Sure it has fans and sure it weighs 4.5 pounds but it's not a deal breaker.
I guess we could do an apples-to-apples comparison (Linux or Windows performance on Macs that have it). Not sure how that works out, though.
It was surprisingly not as expensive as I thought it would be. There are also 3rd party options that will swap in parts for you or try to repair things.
It’s not as satisfying as ordering the parts and changing it out yourself but at this point I don’t prioritize repairs or failures in my buying decisions any more.
This is both hilarious and so perfect, because they're still external adaptors, they're frickin' USB-C dongles! They just fit them within the bounding box of the laptop.
Such a simple, effective solution (if you're willing to sacrifice some volume)
Erm, yeah, external means outside of something. This is a perfectly valid thing to say. Are PCIe cards "external" because you can plug them in? Obviously not.
My ASUS ROG Strix cost me $1500 back when the 3080's were new and has a 3080. Have prices risen that much?
So its more expensive but not $1500 vs $4000 expensive.
This was comparing the lowest end model ROG because that's the only one with a 5070. It was also 100% like-for-like, such as paying for windows, something I personally wouldn't do with a framework.
Weird phrasing. The #1 rule if you're getting hardware to run Linux is: don't by Nvidia.
Modding and upgrade story is more compiling and worth paying a premium in special cases, but their upgrade story is weak. They lag behind HW releases and they don't even support the strongest CPU chip available on the market right now (Ryzen 395), they just sell it as that silly desktop brick. Meanwhile Asus has it in a 14 inch tablet form factor at a better price.
They’ve even mentioned in another video I watched that their fastest growing segment is business customers.
Their systems have unique features and value proposition nobody else is offering so they can charge more than competitors.
Let’s also not forget that the gaming market does have a high end segment that is definitely in this price range. This costs less than a Razer Blade 16 with the same GPU. If you’re trying to compare a Framework to throwaway MSI trash with horrendous longevity that just isn’t an equivalent product.
Might as well be saying “why buy a Toyota RAV4 when a Dodge Hornet is cheaper?” Well, one of those is priced higher because it’s a better long-term buy.
It feels like this mobile chip has been hijacked for a bunch of mini desktops, a single ASUS tablet that you can’t use with a keyboard without a desk to stand it on, and a single HP laptop that (while actually the only real mobile computer) is priced insanely for even the low RAM variants.
What a waste.
> We were the first laptop maker to ship a USB-C 180W adapter with the original Framework Laptop 16, and somehow nearly two years later, we may be the first to ship with 240W too!
That is truly wild. When I first discovered that heavy gaming drains the battery in the FW16 I went out to search for a more powerful USB-C power supply. No results. Best I could find was a paltry 140W one. Definitely upgrading this part.
We sorely need more competition in the 2in1 segment, there aren't many good options. Either gaming laptops (no long commitment, bad build quality) or Lenovo Yogas (bad value, limited/weak hw options).
Write them and ask if you could get the rebate. The times I've had this happened to me when shopping from small/medium-sized businesses they've been nice enough to either give me a refund for the difference, or at least a coupon for future purchases.
Although from what I've read 8GB of VRAM seems insufficiently near-future proof, so I've always been eyeing 5070ti+ laptops. I wonder if there's any technical blocker that prevents offering 5070ti or the amd equivalent.
Outside of Apple, there doesn't seem to be many good fanless laptops. I'd love to see Framework come up with something.
Where's the best places to go for troubleshooting, user guides, etc? I've played with all the bios and framework settings I can find, so I'm guessing it's hardware related, if that changes the resource recommendations.
- Framework community forums: https://community.frame.work/
- Framework guides: https://guides.frame.work/c/Root
I guess general "laptop maintenance" guides should be good enough? Guides that mention things like "Clean out all the dust/vent-junk once every X months/years" (if you have pets, you can't do this often enough it seems) and "redoing the thermal paste each X year".
What OS are you on? Also try opening it up, there just be some dust stuck in there or something
Here is the default link (US): https://frame.work/laptop16?tab=whats-new
I would honestly buy one and load it up with nixOS.
My journey to exit the Apple wall has almost come to an end.
I’m not “doing AI” locally on my laptop, are those AMD processors of any use to me?
I’m familiar with traditional X86_64 CPU architectures, I just don’t understand what (if any) extra bells and whistles the “AI” chips offer.
How so? I can't think of a single thing that shoving a cellular antenna inside the laptop will add.
Is there any plans or similar for a 14in GPU enabled (with a decent TGP) laptop? I got a 14in laptop recently and find it very good for a power/perforamnce tradeoff (ASUS G14 or Razer Blade 14). Not to mention the amazing battery life.
The specification targets on them are always chronically low.
I'm not sure the type-c (200-230w) would be sufficient to run these cards at their reccomended TGP (150w) + CPU (50w) + charge - not that most 16" productivity-oriented notebooks do (70-115W).
I run Xorg, though. I guess Wayland is a sticking point.
It would be cutting out a massive chunk of Framework's potential customers to not even offer Nvidia GPUs.
I don't like Nvidia at all, they're a scummy company. But just offering their products as an option is not "openly hostile and offensive" to Linux users. That's a bizarre take.
