Nowadays, you can no longer exist in society without a phone. Most things will work but it takes one critical service that doesn't have a viable workaround, and you're forced to buy (and possibly carry) a "mainstream" phone just for that.
Banking, government, authentication, postal service and public transit apps are just some of the common categories that will, in the end, force you to use one of those systems, unless governments mandate viable alternatives. The QR-code based recaptcha that's being introduced will be another brick in the wall.
As an individual, it feels like my options are to either submit or try to live a hermit's life, bringing endless suffering and exclusion to myself.
Fight this, fight it hard. It is not acceptable to have to pay a monthly fee to a giant corporation to participate in unrelated things.
I do have a cell phone (grudgingly) but I go way out of my way to never use it. I tell every business I only have a landline phone (which I do have). I will not use anything that supposedly requires a phone, give me an alternative or you're not getting my business.
While I don't have the full ethical commitment of RMS, I can be very obstinate and will push this hard.
Do you always have to pay a monthly fee with a smartphone? Are there pre-paid SIM cards?
Hyperbole doesn’t help. I’m a 44 year old former software engineer now with a modest social media following (100k per platform). I don’t have a phone.
I’ve never had a smart phone, last dumb phone gone in 2015.
I have to hassle my bank to let me use email instead of SMS for 2FA, and I hand jot notes for driving directions sometimes.
Otherwise, I’m immensely happy not to have one.
I think people have been brain washed to believe they can no longer live life without being enslaved by a surveillance device.
Lost? Ask for directions. Need a map? Go to a hotel or a tourist center, or print one in advance.
This anecdata probably says more about french techno-fascism and politics of destroying public services than about how phones have somehow become mandatory because of society evolving in general. I'm still very happy not to have a phone.
Do people realize that this means either of these companies, since they can remotely turn off your account or device, can deplatform you from society including from many government services?
It's an astounding amount of power we have simply ceded to these two companies.
We didn't do it, our representatives did it for us, mostly unaware of what they were doing and still without a clue about what to do with whatever they've created. No they can't, and they won't, academia BS isn't helping anyone either.
Is it the phone or just the mobile operating system? I do most of my phone stuff on a tablet that I keep at home - where it's safer. I am currently using an Android phone (without an account) for GPS, phone calls (contacts), internet, games, email (alternatives to google), etc...
But for those critical and sensitive apps (banking, etc)... I consider those to be too dangerous to be walking around with.
So any phone will serve (I can wait to get home to check email for example).
Towards the end, I copied other peoples QR-codes and printed them out, and that worked nicely as well.
I don’t have a phone.
If they weren't denying Dorothy, that means you did not need an app.
If my phone breaks, I will die? :)
Perhaps it's this spreading of this lie that it's impossible to live without a phone that is contributing to the problem
That's not true, because in the 1990s there was no presumption that everyone has a major-vendor smartphone. Now, the ways to do things without a smartphone are often disappearing, so things are more inconvenient. For example, ticket machines and printed schedules for public transit are going away in many places.
What I would find inconvenient is to be like the smartphone zombies around me, adicted to their phones, restlessly doomscrolling with dead eyes, feeling empty inside.
Print some stuff from time to time or arguing my way through tickets offices is a small price to pay for not being enslaved to the IT-machine.
I do just fine without.
But certainly there are additional challenges. In my city, for example, there has been a massive shift towards phone-pay parking... which excludes my paying for it — still waiting for my citation (to challenge in court).
Carrying my pager with me is the only reason people will pretend-believe I'm actually phoneless. Many have never seen beeper technology, its one-way advancedness.
millions of people would like a word…
> Most things will work but it takes one critical service that doesn't have a viable workaround, and you're forced to buy (and possibly carry) a "mainstream" phone just for that.
Absolutely not, if there is “critical service” that requires an iPhone or Android you call an attorney.
> Banking, government, authentication, postal service and public transit apps are just some of the common categories that will, in the end, force you to use one of those systems, unless governments mandate viable alternatives.
There are now and there always will be alternatives
> As an individual, it feels like my options are to either submit or try to live a hermit's life, bringing endless suffering and exclusion to myself.
As an individual you can and should fight any system that forces you into buying a smartphone. Alternatives must exist even if they might be “incovenient” (e.g. have to do it browser vs. via some “App”)
I disagree, because the impact on my quality of life from fighting the fight is just not a level of sacrifice that is sensible.
> There are now and there always will be alternatives
The problem is that those "alternatives" often come with serious downsides, from higher cost, to massive inconvenience, to having to work around simply not having a service. And while most of the time it's possible to work around it, most people quickly hit the limit where the cost isn't bearable.
This happens all the time on multiple KYC platforms in the US.
My laptop is an equally mobile device, they just don't recognize that.
I am not remotely defending the situation, past or present, just saying it’s a recurring theme.
Hyperbole much.
I’m a 44 year old software engin, I don’t have a phone. Have never had a smart phone, haven’t had a dumb phone since 2015.
Some things are annoying, for example, I have to keep pushing my bank to let me use email not SMS. Going somewhere new I’ll look online on my laptop and jot down a few directions on paper.
That’s about it.
I snowboard and hike and hunt and camp and fish, no coverage doing all those anyway, so much of my life when not in a house with a laptop I simply don’t need or want one.
Classic "all-or-nothing", "black and white" HN comment
No middle ground. Two extremes and nothing in between
In the real world, few people think this way
Not only that, but it's common today to have more than one computer
There is no shortage of HN comments that keep claiming "banking apps" as an argument against any alternatives to using a single phone running a corporate mobile OS _for everything they do with a computer_, not just banking. Feels like a meme
These people must do a lot of banking on the go in places where laptops, for instance, cannot travel. If so, one wonders why not just have a phone dedicated to mobile banking
Whether it may be possible to convince a bank to give you a hardware token instead if they even still make them is not an assured thing.
HN replies often try to reframe this problem from
(a) "How do I avoid using an Apple or Google smartphone" for whatever reason^[FN1]
to
(b) "Banking apps do not work on non-Apple, non-Google" smartphones
or
(c) Apple and Google smartphones need to become likeable, e.g., by pleading with the companies, petitioning the government for regulation, etc.
FN1. I have not seen any HN comments that suggest anyone is concerned about _using a banking app_ on an Apple or Google smartphone. What I have seen are comments that suggest Apple and Google smartphones are unsatisfactory for _other reasons_, such as being "locked down", "not an open platform", "privacy" risks, "security" flaws, etc. The non-banking uses of these smartphones are what cause concern
The problem (a) can be solved by choosing a non-Apple, non-Google smartphone, `i.e., a smartphone running a non-Apple, non-Google OS, or, better yet, by choosing a different form factor running a non-Apple, non-Google OS, _for non-banking uses_
There are some commenters who obviously have no intention of avoiding Apple and Google smarthones _where possible_. They will keep using these smartphones for _everything_, not just online banking
The article starts with Murena, Punkt, Volla which are all based on Android. If you do this, then imho you must mention GrapheneOS, the by far better option (updates, privacy, security, organisation).
Google Pixel with GrapheneOS is the best non-Google phone... ;-)
Volla and Murena are pushing Unified Attestation, a similar system to Google Play Strong Integrity, that they can use to block competition.
Besides that, both Murena and Volla have abysmal security and Volla is mostly in the business of German-washing Chinese smartphones. E.g. their Volla Phone Quintus is a smartphone designed by an Emirates company, largely produced in China, that can be had for 150 Euro new on the ebay.ae .
So I'm not sure how can you suggest GOS is less "degoogled" while not shipping anything but allowing to install sandboxed / constrained play services, while comparing it to /e/OS which ships with a privileged plug.
Also, if you want to run a secure android, that's not /e/OS either.
No, it does not. I wrote the article.
The article is not about phone OSes. The article is about companies that will sell you a NEW non-Google non-Apple smartphone.
The article is not about hardware, or phones.
The article is about PHONE VENDORS.
Also, go read the actual article and read the final paragraph, then act on it.
(Murena /e/OS is similar. No, slamming the downvote button won't make either of them any less Google dependant OSes.)
From Wikipedia: "GrapheneOS[b] (/ˈɡræfiːn.oʊˈɛs/) is a free and open-source, privacy- and security-focused, Android-based operating system"
So still Android.
The kindest was that the store's staff advised against buying the device as it's quite painful to use it with Google's apk & blobs, because it drains more battery than when it's integrated with your system services directly. I told him, that maybe rare, but I'm actually happy to not use Google apps as much as possible and especially not within my operating system. Another point he made was that 5G'A is blocked by Google, about that I know nothing to be honest.
Some Android forks are indeed quite nice, but the issue has always been the updating model, upstream maintenance and compatibility. With Harmony OS a large cooperation with the consumers in focus and the one developing the entire hardware stack is behind the OS development and maintenance making it safer against supply-chain hacks and a deeper integration possible than any other OS.
ArkTS, inspired in Typescript and similar nodejs runtime.
Naturally due to performance problems, they decided to come up with another one, also Typescript inspired, but ahead of time compiled, GC and effects.
It is called Canjgie.
This naturally is a big effort rebooting the whole ecosystem, it only works because Huawei could focus on the Chinese market after losing Android.
There's "OpenHarmony", but the question is whether we can practically run it on Huawei devices..
I had to find a bunch of workarounds to have payments working (I ended vibe-coding my payments app in ArkTS, don't ask) and messaging apps, and well, I use it with almost 0 compromises on a daily basis. It feels like a breeze of fresh air to know there are other devices and platforms out there that, even if seen as the bad guys here in the western world, can be used as a way to escape the established monopolies.
Maybe I should go for Graphene as a safer option to free myself from GMS and Google/Apple in general, but that would require me buying a Pixel device from Google... which I don't like to be honest.
Enjoy your freedom, break free from Google and Apple.
Have a full Linux computer in your pocket that you can also use for calling.
See also the discussion on this post: https://mastodon.social/@janvlug/116504044251287290
You can't escape it.
Your friends and employers and banks use it. The state will soon mandate it for ID. It's the accepted worldwide compute platform, and you're being the nail that sticks out.
Your usage is subject to breaking randomly, being unsupported, losing access or being banned by stepping outside the traffic lines, etc.
They'll use attestation, certs and signing, proprietary APIs, and the scale and might of trillions of dollars to force this.
The only way to "break free" and "enjoy your freedom" is via regulation and -- the better option -- trust busting.
The EU and ASEAN are the best bets for regulation. Getting another Lina Khan that works faster next time is the next best bet for regulation, and possibly a superior outcome that could result in a breakup opening up mobile for true competition.
Being weird in the 0.0001% will not last, nor does it help anyone else escape this monopolistic tyranny.
We need the government to pave the way for dozens of Apple/Google competitors. Or to horizontally split these two companies into dozens of "Baby Bells" that are forced to fight one another.
Use some banking apps. In fact I cannot use one banking app I otherwise would because it will only work if you have no non-store apps installed at all.
A regulatory requirement to prove my ID without using the mobile app would be a 20 min+ each way drive (plus walking, time doing it etc.) to another town.
> The EU and ASEAN are the best bets for regulation.
Did you read the recent HN stories about the EU's age verification app that will only work on attested phones? Lots of other governments (EU and non-EU) doping similar things.
> We need the government to pave the way for dozens of Apple/Google competitors. Or to horizontally split these two companies into dozens of "Baby Bells" that are forced to fight one another.
I have very little confidence that is likely. Politically governments are far more pro-big business and anti-competition than they have been in a long time.
> Being weird in the 0.0001% will not last, nor does it help anyone else escape this monopolistic tyranny.
Every single person who does not go along, is a a political and commercial argument not to remove alternatives. If I use a website and an app to bank or buy something, it pushes up the stats for the web app vs the mobile app.
You just buy a separate, cheap Android/Google phone for all these things. Emphasis on buying the cheapest one possible, so Google and Apple aren't making much money off you.
Back OT, smartphones were always less open than the general purpose computers of yore. And it looks like they are increasingly a requirement for participating in many societies. In general I don't find this a good thing, but have little faith that regulators will 'solve' is because they have their own pitfalls (recent examples from EU: age verification and chat control).
>We need the government to
Since they'll never, any marketers scrolling by: this is your time to scheme your way into the Linux phone promotion/sales game.
They develop Sailfish, a non-Google Linux-based mobile OS that can apparently run Android apps decently in a sandbox.
I have been daily driving SFOS on a Sony Xperia 10 III for the past 3 years and it works well for me. I think the 10 III is the current "peak Sailfish" at least among the officially supported devices but this should change once the new phones roll out in early July. For new orders of the 2026 phone they are currently aiming for delivery in September in the supported markets (EU, UK, Norway and Switzerland).
A third ecosystem right now would have been amazing
Not many tech products exite me less than the concept of a Microsoft Windows 365 Copilot Cortana phone.
As I recall Microsoft threw quite a lot of resources into Windows Phone.
My then-employer had apps for Android and Apple, and Microsoft literally paid for us to port it to Windows Phone. Microsoft brought Nokia, who had dominated the industry in the late 1990s and early 2000s.
And Microsoft was early to the mobile party too - you could get an iPaq H3660 running Microsoft Pocket PC 2000, seven years before the first iPhone. Keyboardless Fujitsu and Compaq tablets ran Windows XP Tablet PC Edition in 2003, seven years before the iPad.
They weren't as good as what came later. Chunky, fragile devices, resistive touchscreens, stylus input with a tiny on-screen keyboard, worse batteries, worse wifi, barely any mobile data. And at the time, $500 seemed hugely expensive compared to a normal phone, even if these days there are plenty of $1000 smartphones.
But there's an alternate reality where Microsoft had a 'first mover advantage' and captured a big slice of the smartphone-and-tablet market.
I loved my Windows phones (especially near the end when you were getting Pixel & Apple level hardware for pennies on the dollar), but is this really true? They had limited hardware partners (and the disaster with Nokia), lukewarm carrier deals, absolutely no apps, but who were these "influential people" who made fun of it? If anything it seemed more like no-one was even aware of it. I remember the little press they did get being quite positive on the devices & OS, while critical of the broader ecosystem, which seems fair.
Initially read this ending on … amazon
Please Universe, don’t give us the Amazon Phone as alternative.
I'm guessing they'll try again at some point, though.
At least this way I can keep the majority of bloat away from primary communications device.
It happened in 2017.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/KaiOS
2017 is also the year ChromeBooks first outsold Macs (by value, not units). 2017 was the Year of Linux on the Desktop, and the penguin taleban didn't even notice.
Could be revived if anyone could be bothered.
All of the copy seems to be built around Solana, "Web3" and crypto. It doesn't seem to have any appeal outside of that. It's not clear what the software even is. The docs [0] seem to indicate it's just Android, with some SDKs for interacting with the "Web3" stuff.
This isn't a "serious attempt at creating an app store that can compete with apple or google", it's just another "Web3" project. It's exciting to people within that ecosystem and utterly uninteresting to anybody who isn't.
0: https://docs.solanamobile.com/get-started/development-setup
It is possible, but nobody's done it since Symbian.
But I haven't dared yet because I kind of expect it will not be able to replace my current phone.
But then it's just maintained by very few people nowadays and half abandoned.
You can buy a used Pixel 3a if you want to toy around with it, they cost nothing.
The OS experience is pretty impressive for not being made by an evil megacorp. The hardware is fairly midrange, but midrange today is last year's top end, and unless you're some expert photographer or needing phone VR or whatever, it's a great, normal smartphone experience.
I'm donating to the open source devs who make my apps, and they respond when I ask for useful features instead of always enshittifying it. For the corpo apps, it pulls from Google Play.
Here is some good practical info on the pros and cons of different de-Googled phone OSes:
https://blog.gridranger.dev/mobile-oses-featuring-fairphone-...
There's a bunch of officially supported phones but most Android phones will have unofficial support also.
Okay, no touch typing, maps apps don't start or don't find your location, WhatsApp probably doesn't work and I guess I don't have to start with banking apps.
Many many years ago, smarphone users had these choices:
Symbian, BlackBerry, Windows Mobile, PalmOS... what else?
They keep saying "If you don’t pay for the product, you are the product". Okay, all fine and well.
But what will my phone still actually be able to do if / when I stop my subscription? Not a single clear answer besides "[…] gradual feature deactivation, and ultimately reverting to a device running AOSP".
Doesn’t really inspire confidence.
I have two of them and use one as my spare phone. I wrote this article.
As far as I can tell: all that happens is that you lose your encrypted email account and cloud storage. That's it. Otherwise, the phone continues working as before.
What subscription?
https://www.punkt.ch/products/mc03-premium-secure-smartphone
There's a little bit - but barely - more about AphyOS in the FAQ if you scroll way down.
Yes, it is quite hard to get a non-duopoly smartphone..
LMAO
Glad you liked it.
Like for example, every crappy things like banks nowadays requires their own shitty app. It might be a pain in the ass to share between phones or to reinstall if you lose or change your phone. And all these useless app consume really a lot of storage resulting in my phone's being always full.
That would be perfect to access it in a kind of remote access for use once in a while.
It is not about phone OSes. It is not about phone hardware. It is about phone VENDORS.
The last paragraph should also explain this to you.
> Well, probably, yes.
Even with "probably" as a qualifier, this is disingenuous.
Not even Android has caught up to the highest tier of apps available on iOS.
which apps do you mean?
It was sold normally as any other cellphone.
Yes. I wrote the article. I use one.
> with their proprietary chargers?
Not true. It's a generic USB-C device. Does fast charge off any high-power charger, e.g. a Raspberry Pi one.
It is near the end of its life now -- struggles to last the day -- and it was stuffed with bloatware, but it was good for the price in 2023.
My previous handset was an Umidigi F2 which was much better value for money. I will probably go back to them, or another budget brand such as Dooyoo, Blackview, Ulefone, etc.
