Ask HN: Why do jr developer positions require so much?

9 pointsdevcheese10y ago14 comments

I thought the point of being in a JR developer position was to get a job with limited experience and continue to learn while working. I've been in a job search lately and checking out these Jr Developer positions, they require so much! Some require bachelors degrees, 3-5 years in web development, experience with quite a few languages. I can't tell if this is really what Jr Developer positions require or if these companies are trying to save some money by paying little for the same experience.

14 comments

chrisbennet10y ago

My theory is that JR+lots of requirements means "We want talent but we don't want to pay for it. Hey, it doesn't hurt to ask..."

atmosx10y ago

I am afraid that you are spot on. Knowing 5 stacks on 3 different languages is hardly newbie material.

Someone123410y ago

Junior and senior is related to responsibility and pay, not skill level. It is also worth noting that a job advert is a list of their "ideal" requirements, so if you don't meet them try applying anyway (or just claim you've been developing in your own time for "years").

CyberFonic10y ago

A PHB's idea of junior is somebody who jumps up, salutes and does as he is told. And is content with getting paid peanuts. Gen Y need not apply.

cblock81110y ago

I took my first two jobs at crap pay because I just wanted to learn somewhere. I'm Gen Y. Not sure if you were trying to start another bs "This generation is entitled rabble rabble" argument..

jewel10y ago

For me at least, it's because those without a few years of experience aren't going to be able to be productive enough to be worth their pay. In fact, even if money isn't an issue, they can add more workload to the senior members of the team in mentoring and bug-fixing time. This might be partially because web development changes so fast. It's unlikely that someone with a degree but no real-world experience is going to be productive without (optimistically) a few months of training.

Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly hire someone who has done her own side-projects that show initiative and ability to teach herself, even if she wasn't through school yet.

VOYD10y ago

Plus there is some experience that you just can't get until you are part of bigger (i.e. "enterprise level") projects, and you've learned a lot of the "gotchas" that come along with that.

lsiebert10y ago

That's why, in part I'm spending some of my time in between job hunting working on contributing to an OS project, not because I'm going to be learning the latest django or javascript idiom so I can hit the ground running, or detailed algorithms for solving a complex problem, but because working with teams is a soft skill that takes time to develop. Also I use the project everyday.

MalcolmDiggs10y ago

As developers, I think our collective definition of "junior" and "senior" is very different than in most professions.

In other industries (think electricians, welders, doctors, attorneys, etc) you'd still be very "junior" if you only had 3 years experience.

And my theory is that a lot of HR and Executive folks are trained to think that way; they just haven't bought into our way of seeing things...and they don't necessarily appreciate how quickly things change in this industry; and how quickly people can up their skill-set to senior levels.

brudgers10y ago

With the exception of welders, the other trades you mention are all licensed professions. In the case of welders, serious work requires certification and gets inspected to reduce the chance that someone dies.

A runaway online shopping cart can't crush a child. It's more the case of lower standards in software.

CyberFonic10y ago

But the same lax standards are used by the likes of Toyota when developing software for their ECUs - now that has resulted in crashes and fatalities, see: http://www.edn.com/design/automotive/4423428/Toyota-s-killer...

alain9404010y ago

That's why during college you need to work on some external projects (internship, open source, it doesn't matter, as long as you build "free" experience).

lsiebert10y ago

Which assumes that you majored in CS for your bachelor's degree. And could afford to go to college.

jotux10y ago

Job posting "requirements" are almost always wishlists and you should treat them that way.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse

14 comments

chrisbennet10y ago

My theory is that JR+lots of requirements means "We want talent but we don't want to pay for it. Hey, it doesn't hurt to ask..."

atmosx10y ago

I am afraid that you are spot on. Knowing 5 stacks on 3 different languages is hardly newbie material.

Someone123410y ago

CyberFonic10y ago

A PHB's idea of junior is somebody who jumps up, salutes and does as he is told. And is content with getting paid peanuts. Gen Y need not apply.

cblock81110y ago

I took my first two jobs at crap pay because I just wanted to learn somewhere. I'm Gen Y. Not sure if you were trying to start another bs "This generation is entitled rabble rabble" argument..

jewel10y ago

Don't get me wrong, I'd gladly hire someone who has done her own side-projects that show initiative and ability to teach herself, even if she wasn't through school yet.

VOYD10y ago

Plus there is some experience that you just can't get until you are part of bigger (i.e. "enterprise level") projects, and you've learned a lot of the "gotchas" that come along with that.

lsiebert10y ago

MalcolmDiggs10y ago

As developers, I think our collective definition of "junior" and "senior" is very different than in most professions.

In other industries (think electricians, welders, doctors, attorneys, etc) you'd still be very "junior" if you only had 3 years experience.

brudgers10y ago

A runaway online shopping cart can't crush a child. It's more the case of lower standards in software.

CyberFonic10y ago

alain9404010y ago

That's why during college you need to work on some external projects (internship, open source, it doesn't matter, as long as you build "free" experience).

lsiebert10y ago

Which assumes that you majored in CS for your bachelor's degree. And could afford to go to college.

jotux10y ago

Job posting "requirements" are almost always wishlists and you should treat them that way.

j / k navigate · click thread line to collapse