>She recommends that app users stop scrolling and talking to other matches once they have found nine people they feel some level of connection with, and dedicate their time to really trying to get to know those people first.
Oh, stop at nine? Well I'll let you know when I eventually hit nine concurrent matches. Hasn't happened yet, eight years and counting. I'm sure I'll be able to stop scrolling any year now. It's like reading about a different planet.
I'm not stating this to brag but only for context: I get many concurrent matches when I'm on dating apps. I'm wealthy, pretty good looking (but short which is a big hit), and have a lot of hobbies and am in good shape. Overall, I'd say I get ~100x more matches than most guys and actually have girls who slide into my DMs on Twitter and Instagram. I still deleted all of the apps because I'd rather meet women in real life and I'm way happier and suggest all guys do the same for their mental health.
Online dating doesn't compare to real life. Not saying it can't happen (my ex-ex-girlfriend and I met on Hinge and it was great), but it's just not the same. I find I can meet higher-quality women in real life because I can show up with full energy and depth and showcase confidence in a way that's impossible when she's looking at me in a sea of other matches. I also think dating apps are a bad deal for women as well. They meet a bunch of men who will sleep with them but aren't looking to settle down. It's hard for women to judge the real energy and confidence of a guy online. It's just not a great dynamic for both parties IMO unless you're exclusively looking to hook up (which is fine and people should do what they want).
I've learned to really enjoy all the other feelings around sex not ejaculating and that has given me a whole new lease on the act and my partners have really, really appreciated that I don't go for 5 to 10 "cum and done".
There's tons of methods of training yourself out there. Just Google around. It really helps when dates are thinking if they should keep dating you.
And yes, sex isn't everything but good sex sure does help and it's an intrinsic, important part of coupling.
I've heard these numbers passed around but does anyone have a source for this? I ask in part because my own life experiences and observations match well with your first sentence - a person who works on themselves, IE: has hobbies and activities, has a viable career, etc - will be attractive to someone out there in the world. There is a body size and shape that will appeal to everyone, education and career are negligible as long as you are doing "something" with your life, etc.
I do not believe this to be true just based on what I observe in my social circles. It might be a bit skewed but these numbers sound absurd - do you have any source to back them up?
Men and women are not so different.
I am sorry but this is BS. Mathematically speaking it's impossible.
It's the emotional component which makes people feel like perennial underdogs and say abominations like the above.
No matter how rich you are you can only bring one girl to a dinner date per night. Even a guy like Dan Bilzerian is on the record saying that a vacation in which he brings more than 8 girls rapidly becomes hell
What is true is that the top 1% of males is desired by 90% of women but that is also true the other way around given that men too have become extremely vulnerable to PR , advertisement and the promotional industry in general. So they deeply desire Kim Kardashian even though the college girl next door is probably conventinally hotter considering age and height.
Again, there are male dominated niches, and if you consume media in those niches you do note a decided male bias to the content.
It only means that your (purely online, purely digital) presentation in your dating profile isn't as good as it could be. But whether they like your profile text is almost uncorrelated to the fact whether the same women would enjoy spending time with you in real life.
Plus there's ghostwriters, photoshop, and other services to fix your profile if you really want to. Or did you expect others to actually look in real-life like they look in their photoshopped Face-app-ed Tinder pictures? In that case, you've been comparing yourself to other people's aspirational advertising. There's a reason why even for models the RAW files of their photo-shoots are under NDA.
The most contagious stuff in the world is genuine excitement and happiness. And I'd put pheromones at a close 2nd. But both only work if you do some social group activity in-person with others. In my opinion, social media and online dating exist purely to agree on date/time/location to meet in person.
Like I just don't understand the scenario here?
Post college, it just feels like online data is the only real option.
I'm not saying I want to meet someone at work. But, work is the 2nd most common place to meet someone. Friends are #1 but as I mentioned my friends don't come through here.
Bars don't seem my thing. I am going to a dance event regularly but so far nothing there and even then, I can't talk while I dance as I need to concentrate on getting the moves right (it's a well known style of dance, not just club dancing)
Trying to go to meetups but COVID is still a thing so outdoors only. And it can be burn out on those two because rarely is there anyone I might be interested in. (single, age appropriate, and seem compatible). I know it's a numbers game, I just am running out of ideas on how to increase the numbers.
The apps don't work for me. I get at most 3~4 dates a year out of them. It's better than zero but not by much.
That means: on concerts, on hacking camps, in art exhibitions, especially exhibition openings, on film sets etc. These places reflect my interests of course, so I don't go there because of women, I go there because the stuff there interests me. So for you it could be a sports club, a library, an animal rights organization or any number of other, similar places where people of similar interest gather.
The point is: if you want to get to know people (regardless of their gender) exposing yourself to situations where you actually get the chance to meet new people is a good way to increase your chances. Just like your chances of rolling a 6 increase with every roll of the dice.
The important thing is to do it because you like, not because you expect to find women there.
> The important thing is to do it because you like,
As I said, I do, but none of the things I like involve enough people of the opposite sex. It doesn't help that I'm old so it might be true there are some 20 somethings at a hacking event but there are no 50 somethings.
they often complain they are made to feel uncomfortable by that
In which country COVID is still a thing that prevents indoors meetings?
Regardless, outdoor there is a world of events happening; it isn't just "indoors". Just check on meetup.com.
> I can't talk while I dance as I need to concentrate on getting the moves right (it's a well known style of dance, not just club dancing)
At social dances, dancers often socialize on the sides of the dance floor, taking a break rather than dancing the whole evening; socializing or not is very much a choice.
I think you're confusing unable to go to indoor meetings versus unwilling.
Consider paying for them. From a male perspective, it’s strictly a numbers game.
Tinder Platinum did wonders for me. Saves your time, and gets you pushed higher in the stack of the cards, which leads to more matches.
unintentional blindside question in a softball interview
What's the outcome when everyone pays for it?
I recognize that feeling! It took me a long time before it disappeared. Practice helps a lot. And if you forget a move, it's okay to get back to the basic (assuming you are doing a partner dance and not a line dance - I suck at line dances).
I don't know which style of dance you mean. You may consider different dance styles.
I did a bit of ballroom in grad school, then years later learned salsa, then added tango, then some swing and other dance styles (modern, Scottish country, Swedish folk dance).
Each one has a different social scene. Where I lived, tango tends towards older people, and is usually combined with a social/café scene (a milonga). "Older" means 40s and up.
Salsa is more at clubs. As a bouncer once pointed out, he loved the energy of the dancers, but they don't drink much so it doesn't make much revenue for the bar.
It took a couple of years of salsa classes, and dancing salsa elsewhere, before I realized that I didn't like the salsa style my teacher taught, and preferred another studio. So that's also something to consider.
Swing tended to be a younger, more energetic crowd (late teens/20s), with dance events at more specialized locales that had more open space (where I was, that was generally a yoga/dance studio or the OddFellows Hall, which hosted a lot of smaller dance events).
My limited ballroom experience was that the higher levels tend towards ballroom studios. I got the feeling that engineers lean towards ballroom because there are more specific steps and progressions to learn.
The folk dancing scene is pretty laid back. The basics aren't hard to learn, and people will help you with them. It's the most family-friendly of the dances I did, with quieter music, and more often held outside (if the weather is good) because it doesn't need a special dance floor.
For what it's worth, at my peak I was dancing about 25 hours per week. I met my wife at a dance event, held at bar.
Other things I did, to meet people, were local community college classes (as a new resident to the state, I like the local state history course the best; the teacher also hosted a monthly local history event, which I went to - nearly everyone was 55 and older so I was the youngest by far) and Sierra Club hikes.
i started climbing and bouldering recently and while I haven't met anyone romantically (I have no interest in pushing this, I want to do it for the hobby first, and for meeting people second), the group I go with usually has more women than men and in the gyms it seems to be about a 50/50 split so I can easily see how you could meet someone there in the way you imagine.
though I must emphasize not to do it to meet women as the primary purpose, I feel like that's kind of creepy vs. an event that is explicitly for that purpose (like single bars or whatever).
just seconding this. the gym is already a pretty tough environment and people coming for this purpose make it outright hostile. it's not a bar.
do climb though, it's a great way to get strong and do something fun!
* It's a natural two-person activity with a bidirectional trust exercise.
* Heights provide a little amygdala stimulation.
* It's hard and physical and you feel like you deserve a beer afterwards.
* If your date is not already a climber, you get to play the role of the teacher/master.
* It weeds out the extremely uptight / neurotic.
that said, it does make for a good first date and i definitely got a bunch of random people into climbing that way... =)
Drinking alcohol at the alcohol place is not an interesting thing.
The majority of swing dance socials will have very low levels of intoxication (because everyone is there to dance!), and it is a social atmosphere where it is expected and encouraged to introduce yourself to strangers and ask them to dance. If you are a man (or dance the lead role), don't worry about not being able to do so much fancy stuff while you're dancing. Often, experienced followers are perfectly happy to try out individual stylistic variations while the leader holds a nice steady basic.
I'd recommend going with the intention of trying to expand your social circle, and seeing where you end up!
> dance
I think the best thing you can do is focus on yourself, particularly by cultivating hobbies that you enjoy—bonus points if they’re things you can enjoy alone and with others, because they’re easy inroads and great first dates (worst case you get to spend a bit of time doing something you like!).
The second thing I’d encourage is to get any potential dealbreakers out of the way early (e.g. religion, political views, desires for parenthood, career aspirations). It’s a slow path, but it’s helped me avoid the major pitfalls I’ve seen in my friend’s’ and colleagues’ relationships.
But first you have to meet the person to go on a date with.
Compare to most of the relationships I've had, those were people I knew 6+ months before we got interested in each other. Classmates, co-workers, group friends.
not just for dating, for all kinds of 'network reboot'. doesn't have to be traditional grad school either, any kind of high-investment cohort-based bonding experience should do it
agree with you that hollowing out of local institutions is rough, esp for over-30s post-pan. The web has not done a good job of delivering IRL social networks; tinder is IMO fairly good at this, with the caveat that it's impossible to turn the connections into a true community
The tradeoffs though... like student loan debt!
Few things. First, why is covid still a thing? You can just as easily catch it on a date or at work, just go to the indoor meetups. I'm in a liberal big city in the US and covid isn't a thing anymore. It's been three years. I don't want to die alone, do you? I had long COVID, it sucks, but it's unfortunately not an option.
Second, some meetups have different people going to it in each event. Those are the date targets. But, focus on making friends there, this happens if you go regularly, weekly, to the same ones.
So you do know where to look, you just don't want to look there.
YMMV but that's the case in my area in Europe. Maybe the US has a different culture.
He might not even drink!
I usually don't talk while dancing with someone too, but social partnered dancing is how I met my wife. You don't have to be super social, but hopefully you naturally form some friends out dancing you can talk with while you're sitting out a dance. Just the act of being friendly and social with others puts you in the right situation; women usually prefer someone like that to someone sitting by themselves silently.
Are you doing competitive dancing?
If you’re dancing for fun yet you’re more concerned about dancing “properly” than you are about just socializing, people are probably wondering why you’re taking it so seriously.
I took years of dance lessons, and at my peak was dancing about 25 hours per week. My social life was my dance friends, made after I started taking it so seriously. My friends also went to dance lessons, and worked to get the moves right. My now-wife, for example, studied for a year to be a ballroom dance instructor then taught courses and private lessons.
In traveling dances like tango and waltz, the lead must learn not only the basic forward motion, but also how to turn corners, and how to avoid people. At the beginning, this took me a lot of effort. My first few tango milongas were mostly "step, step, stop, think; repeat" unable to hold a conversation and dance at the same time.
Things got better once I had enough practice in moving about floor, but at the beginning, it was tough.
And that was after several years of salsa dancing. A real beginning tango dancer would likely have it worse.
There are also people who believe "if it's worth doing, it's worth doing well."
And some people have a sort of impostor syndrome - they know they are beginners, they see the better dancers, and they think people won't like them or dance with them until they get better. This is wrong, but the solution isn't to suggest stop taking it so seriously, but to get those dancers to know it really is okay to be a beginner dancer - everyone was a beginner once. "Taking it seriously" is respected because that's what those better dancers did to become better.
There's also the opposite - beginners who want to learn more complicated moves right away, before they even get the basics down, and end up making the follow annoyed for being lead into uncomfortable positions, being stepped on, etc. To anyone reading - don't be like that.
That's why dating is a multi billion dollar industry.
On a dating app women are happy to swipe left and see who's next but when there is a man right in front of them the calculus is way different.
I'd like to counter-argue with a quote from this random Reddit thread in /r/AskWomen [1] titled "What is one place you hate to be hit on?":
> Grocery store. I'm just like, dude, leave me alone, I'm here to get my food and get out as quickly as possible. I'm not interested in having to pretend not to be annoyed by you interrupting my day, fuck off.
And I'd like to point out that "Earth" is also an answer there.
I feel for the OP because he's stuck between a rock and a hard place: hitting on women is often annoying for the woman being hit on, but at the same time not hitting on women means that he can only date people who he meets for reasons other than dating. It's like a Zen riddle: "What is that which you can only have once you stop desiring it?".
This is the landscape that gave rise to the hell we call "dating apps", and I really wish we had something better.
[1] https://old.reddit.com/r/AskWomen/comments/pzojno/what_is_on...
"Do you know a good brand of pasta sauce? I don't like garlic, and it seems everything has garlic in it."
"Are the waist sizes honest here? I'm a 36 but some places that's like 40 inches."
And leave it at that. Maybe somebody will continue the conversation, but most won't. It's a numbers game.
Is that ballroom dance with lead/follower? If that's the case, I cannot recommend it enough. It's hard as hell in the first couple of years, but then you'll grasp it. See this graph for the learning curve of ballroom dancing, and don't give up [1].
[1]: https://www.salsafs.com/site/assets/articles/learning_curve....
I love ballroom, been doing it more or less since high school (10+ years and some breaks), but I wouldn't really use this curve for any other reason than to motivate new men to attend classes.
In the beginning, followers may have a slightly easier time since it's probably a bit easier for a follower to learn from a more advanced leader than the other way around, but this plateaus pretty soon (low single digit months).
Also, leaders tend to pick and followers accept / reject, so in that respect, "attractive followers" will have a bit of an easier time (more offers) than if you're a shy, not very attractive leader.
But that's mostly just for newcomers. Eventually, few dances in, people get familiar with your level and you with theirs in a given group. And I've yet to see a place where one could get no partners, even as a "beginner with only a handful of introductory classes" (unless through some pretty obvious breaches of ethics / personal hygiene).
Eventually (maybe a few months in), both leaders and followers have to do some introspection and practice things like technique, posture and musicality. And there's simply no way other than mindful practice.
I don't know what's the universal experience regarding this, but for me and other people I know, males are extreme disadvantage in the context of dating apps; this applies also to the app that supposedly reverses the roles.
I have the suspicion that the elephant is the room is that for men, online dating takes many, many hours (I can't quantify, but an hour a day or so, seems the minimum to me) of effort, often for nothing (I definitely know at least one man who's able to game the system, but he's an exception).
This is definitely a recipe for burnout, and it's very specific to online dating . If one wants to find potential mates, any organized activity (sports, etc. - Meetup is perfect) will do; the effort to talk to a potential partner, in that case, is virtually zero.
Dating apps, as for-profit publicly-traded enterprises, have no incentive to work on fixing the problem
The only way out of this would be for a non-profit fully-FOSS dating platform to be created that considers satisfying its users dating objectives its one and only priority, rather than seeing them as a source of income. Make matching more likely by applying two-way filters in the swipe queue, discourage pointless accumulation of matches by clout-chasers and attention junkies, refuse any gamification, don't offer any feature for money but encourage donation on successful connection, and make "engagement" a negative KPI—the KPI should be how many users successfully connect to another and stop using the app, and how quickly they achieve it in terms of app usage.
Of course, setting up something like this would require significant effort and "investment" with no hope of profit. It's in my bucket list of plans on how to become a millionaire (from billionaire, that is).
The net result is that neither men or women match easily, in many cases it's a tragedy of the commons. Even on the "app that reverses the roles" it's difficult to match to likely partners for either gender.
This makes the common mistake in assuming that when a man gets a match, the majority of time it will be a good, high quality one that puts equal effort into the dating process. This is not the case.
Of course, this requires having and maintaining the type of relationship with family and friends where this is possible.
This type of “screening” value provided by brokers is not limited to dating, but also any low frequency, high cost transaction such as real estate, businesses, hiring workers, etc. This is the less cynical side of “it is not what you know, it is who you know”, meaning that the cost of evaluating certain risks can be so high that it is worth offloading that onto one’s network.
It's not exactly surprising that the top % of men that most women keep matching with treat them as disposable. To those men they are.
lucky for me I suppose I got married before dating apps became a thing..
There's really aa difference between what men and women expect, and also between what they say and what they do. I'm pretty honest when I talk with someone, something serious and compromises are not on my horizon, a lot of women discard me when I say that, and I'm ok with it, but sometimes I continue talking with them, and they told me how many man lie saying that they want something just to get on the their bed sheets and they disappear after that. Overall, I found some great people and nice aquitances, but the time I had spent is not despreciable.
Tinder specifically should be sued out of existence. It ignores location, will happily tell you your boost has been a "success" without a single match or you'll get a couple from 7,000 miles away. It's outright fraud.
Please don't come to my clubs looking to get laid -- parasitic mentality.
Jokes aside... Dating apps suck. Generally so does going on first dates. So does interviewing for a job. So does making new/any friends.
Lots of things are hard and are a numbers game. The nice part is that HOPEFULLY you only have to hit a home run once. You don't have to become an expert at dating. You just have to try enough to meet someone who is as weird and fucked up as you and wants to spend a lot of time being weird and fucked up together.
If a given app has been snatched up by Match, it's almost certainly being optimized towards having you addicted to swiping.
The other 80% of men are pretty much ignored. As a counter reaction, they deploy a dragnet approach. Spamming many low effort messages as any love is good love.
Painting with a broad brush here, obviously.
Sure some guys take the scattergun approach, but I think also a lot of men are being too picky and swiping past good matches.
But I do very much agree with your overall point that this is an incredibly unnatural way to date. Reduce a full human to a 3 second review based on near-zero info and match it to some arbitrary shopping checklist as if people are a utility.
Perhaps that does break the dynamic somewhat. It's more like a slot machine. The lady in the article spent close to a decade spending hours per day just swiping. That's not dating, it's hardcore addiction.
> Abby, 28, has been on dating apps for eight years […]. A committed user, she can easily spend two or more hours a day piling up matches, […]. Not a single long-term relationship has blossomed from her efforts.
Perhaps if you can’t find what you’re looking for in 8 years and 6000+ man-hours, the problem is you?
The overwhelming majority of men will never get a single date from online dating.
You can do a lot of things to improve your level of attractiveness. Most of us don't roll out of bed looking like a peach, it takes conscious and consistent effort.
Survivorship bias. I have friends who found their partners on there, too. But I got ten times more friends who did not get anything meaningful out of dating apps.
Maybe. Just some speculation here, but she might be looking for some kind of perfect man. Lots of people might seem perfect, but being perfect is quite something else. I would think finding a matching personality would be a better aim.
Also, some people are quite suspicious and jealous, which are not attractive traits. The same counts for a certain aggressive attitude, and yes, many women have certain ways of coming accross as aggressive.
Then there is the general issue that many people on dating sites are casual daters and not looking for the same as you. A lot of people that are good at relationships are already in a relationship. The people not being good at them will end up more on a dating site. Just a statistics thing, nothing directly personal.
And something else... How do you recognize your life partner? I knew a friend who told me of a date, and she knew he was the right guy the moment she saw him. They are now together more than 10 years. I don't have that nose and am trying to refine my nose in that regard.
1) Be attractive. 2) Don't be unattractive.
Surely after 8 years this person might have looked back on failed relationships, and tried to understand why they've failed. Is it because of the dating apps, and if so, why precisely? Is it because of the people on dating apps?
I feel like pointing fingers at dating apps in general is just wrong.
I'd say unless the girl is from out of town and it's a weekend you have to pretend you want a relationship even if you just want fun.
This wrongly presumes that every girl on Tinder wants a relationship. Not to mention that it’s very dishonest.
You probably want to date people in the top 5 or 10% of your target sex/gender/age range. As does everyone else in the expanded pool that people can now access with the internet or the apps. Everyone has probably been told by the apps that they can get someone in the top 5 or 10% of what is available to them, so will feel unhappy with anyone else.
Most women will probably notice this as guys will only want to have sex with them if they are not what guys have been told they 'deserve' by the apps / society, or guys may settle for them if they are content with getting sex. A few will be able to optimally choose a guy or get all of the casual sex that they desire.
Most guys will probably find that no-one wants to connect with them at all without payment, or getting something out of the deal or will be treated as if they don't exist. Things are probably really bad if they are in the bottom 10 to 30% in desirability. A few will be able to optimally choose a woman or get all of of casual sex that they desire.
I am not sure about subcultures / non-cis / non-het groups or situations outside my country as I don't have experience of dating them and don't know how things work.
"Everyone has probably been told by the apps that they can get someone in the top 5 or 10% of what is available to them, so will feel unhappy with anyone else." -- I think the fact that these apps have instilled a sense of "I can do better" attitude is probably one of the core problems here. So, I would still probably hold the dating apps responsible.
Then it changes dating a lot. Before, you often people from your extended social circle. You met people at your hobbies, at uni or even work, or when going out. You could ask common acquaintances to check someone out. And you had at least some kind of social connection.
And dating apps remove all ambiguity. You are not in an innocent everyday situation where you happen to like somebody, you start flirting and you move closer and see what happens. It is clear from the beginning that you are both there looking for something. I would find that immensely stressful, everything becomes a performance. I can't flirt "on cue" and I've heard the same from other people.
I wonder how modern dating would look like if the financial incentives of the app company was not the main driver. Maybe you'd have some "neutral" social network that people use IRL where dating was just an emergent side function? But maybe I'm biased because that's how online dating looked like in my early 20s?
This is precisely what I find appealing. Maybe I'm just socially deficient, but I find it stressful to navigate the ambiguity of real life encounters. Especially in todays climate where unsolicited advances can get you in trouble.
I prefer to avoid flirting. In my experience, flirting can be done with anybody, I could even flirt with a male person. The person is interchangeable in flirting. Being curious about the person and shared interests and especially the shared view on relationships is for me a good way to start a conversation.
But now I do flirt with people I want to befriend as well as date. Lots of eye contact and smiling. Quick gentle touches on the shoulder to emphasize a point or accompany laughter. Extra acknowledgement of their points, ideas, viewpoints. Light, pleasant teasing ("Look at you, stunning everyone with your outfit, Okay, I see you over there").
Gotta be willing to try on new personas and interpersonal behaviors. Maybe take an improv class.
There is. It’s instagram, and “sliding into” a stranger’s DMs is how you walk across the room and say hi to someone you’re attracted to.
So although dating cultures have changed, people really overestimate the effect of dating apps.
That’s basically what Instagram is.
But I’ve used the dating apps, and I really don’t understand what the issue is with them. They’re a great way to meet people.
I've simply accepted that I'm going to be single unless something dramatic happens in my life.
I'm 39 and single, although I have decent success offline when I expend any effort.
The women who I've dated in real life--I'm pretty sure they'd all ignore me on the dating app. Phrased differently, I find the women I've actually dated far more attractive (not only physically) than any who will engage with me online.
Agreed.
>unless something dramatic happens in my life.
I will kindly suggest that maybe that dramatic thing is you and what you will do starting today. e.g. Look at suggestions from others, NOT talking about apps.
Quitting actually helped me recover from depression and now I'm alone and somewhat happy, while before I was a constantly dissatisfied mess. Hope you find someone if that's what you want, but just so you know, you can do well alone.
For most straight men - dating apps are a form of purgatory and Sisyphusian efforts. The difference is so starkly different compared to all of the other people I know who aren’t straight men. Only straight men I know who don’t have these issues tend to be incredibly physically attractive to the point where they’d have women come up to ask them out on dates everyday. (Unheard of for an average man)
My advice is to pickup activities where women are and that have a natural social element. There are almost none of these btw. Social dancing is about the only one that exists still. The rest of activities out there that are social and involve meeting new people are completely dominated by men. Just brutally so. Most women I know don’t go out to meet new people via social activities like dancing. They go to insular parties, hang out with core group of friends, or stay home and watch Netflix. Very few are truly outgoing and willing to take the leap and meet new people by themselves. I can count on maybe one hand all the women I’ve met who are like that - and I’ve met thousands.
Similarly, many comments have talked about bars not being a good place to meet single women. From my experience this also isn’t true. You don’t walk up to a girl alone at the bar like in the movies though - you’re friend group mingles with another friend group, and one person in that friend group is probably single. The process is way slower than immediately going and talking to the person you want to meet.
But, this is HN so our social skills level is probably one standard deviation lower than anywhere else.
Traffic is bad enough with the incoming flow. /s :)
Genuinely - with your experience and the way you advertise it as being incredibly slow - it sounds like you’ve met maybe a half dozen women this way and got lucky with a couple and ascribe this to a winning strategy.
I’m just saying - it’s not sounding great for meeting lots of women. It sounds like a good way to meet a dozen women and either get lucky or have incredibly low standards that allows you to pair up with 1 out of 12 women.
Or travel. Either way you have to be social
If I move, as smart/thin/no children yet/no drug problems woman, I suppose I'll stand out right away (and less flatteringly, compensate for some of the legit downsides/difficult nature of dating me...)
But the variety of eligible men will be way lower, and I think I'm romanticizing the types available ("maybe some engineer in his thirties will move back home to take care of his aging dad") Hallmark channel thinking, I know... The numbers would be against me and I'll be the fodder for gossip as an 'outsider' right away... Seems you can't make any mistakes in a small town, and petty folks might lie about you even if you don't.
The best of the city men (smart, stable etc) want to stay in the city by disposition or are tied there by profession. And some of the best of city men in brains/looks/disposition combo somehow don't want children, so what's the point?
Honesty on dating apps requires a lot of intuition about reverse-psychology and theory-of-minding and signaling (which is why average stem-y men often have terrible profiles, but I digress)
Women often can't actually just state outright boundaries/goals, as it attracts bad elements that want to push those boundaries, exploit them, or indeed seemingly share your goals but for the wrong reasons.
In my case, if you try to filter for men eager to leave the city to homestead, buy a cabin, leave the grind etc, by stating that, it accidentally attracts bad people eager to trap a woman, Kaszinski types (without even the harvard cred lmao).
Maybe it's that misanthropy in women (and/or myself) gives me cat lady vibes at worst, but misanthropy in men becomes scary and deranged. Being too clear about a goal like that also scares off decent men who might consider it if they already were in love with you, but not ready to chop wood next month, easier to swipe left on ambivalence.
The way to get the perfect intersection of a. wants to leave metropolis, b. wants family, and c. wholesomeness/decency is pragmatically in America just....Christianity.
Christians Conservatives have such an easier time of this game, it's a cluster of unspoken boundaries and norms and vibes, that does all the filtering/signaling without outright stating it ("no hook-ups" just invites 'challenge accepted' sleaze, whereas implied christian morality basically signals sex will move way slower, men are far less presumptuous etc etc)
It's a cohesive "aesthetic" but it feels super dishonest to me to try to co-opt it for benefits without going all-in. Christian partners would not be happy with my level of actual belief (I'd say 3/10).
Regardless, there needs to be a dating app for people who can remote work post-covid who are willing to move anywhere or filter by big general regions.
Changing the location on Hinge to talk to people and get the 'lay of the land' in small towns feels dishonest.
e.g. "How to start horse ranching" or "Beginner guide to essential tractor repairs". Maybe there's a farming conference you can go to where you can scope things out.
I DO realize there's probably not many "How to raise farm goats" meetups in Manhattan but you might be lucky if you live close to somewhere more rural.
1) "Looks shouldn't matter!" But they do. You don't need to be a model, but you probably need to be more healthy. I went to the gym almost every morning (missed about 3 days) for a year, got in better shape, etc. Now use a home gym.
2) Be less judgemental. Log, splinter, eye, etc. You're not perfect, so don't expect her to be.
3) Don't be argumentative. The Internet trains western internerds to be argumentative little snots. It's pathetic. Just don't be like that.
4) Ignore the crazy twitter feminists. Actual women like to feel appreciated and respected. Ask about her field of expertise, her hobbies, etc, and appreciate her expertise in those areas.
5) Stay away from chicks with high bodycount. They are a health risk at the very least. If she doesn't respect her body and yours, you're not safe.
6) Have goals and work at advancing your life.
I don't think this is dating app burnout, this is just dating burnout. Dating apps just make it easy to connect with potential matches (relative to not having dating app burnouts). And if you have dating burnout, take a break from dating! It's nice to just be ok with being single sometimes and enjoy other aspects of life.
"Before she deleted the apps, she spent any moments of downtime swiping; after, she found she had time throughout the day to rest. ... But Dr. Turban believes that for some, simply deleting the apps is not enough. “It’s important to understand why the apps are causing problems for you,” he said, adding that therapists can be helpful for sorting these answers out. “Are you using the apps to self-soothe anxiety and inadvertently making your anxiety worse? Are you afraid you can’t attain love, so you’re settling for hookups, and that’s making you unhappy?” ... “People binge, and that is what exhausts them,” "
Now this does represent burnout of dating apps, and is a result of just not using them with patience and reflection as to the emotions you associate with them.
I generally view dating apps very positively (they, and in particular OkCupid, have led to numerous good relationships and friends) but as with anything it's possible to use them in an unhealthy way.
Profiles should be homogenous in form and style, and should include video Q/A in a fixed format so WYSIWYG. No clever bullshit, no editing images, just videos of your average self answering question.
I was looking for a comment like this before I wrote one of my own! Completely agree! I'm a happily married guy, but used nearly every dating app that existed from 2004-2012. Everyone's talking about how dating apps suck. They were, for me, another way to meet folks during those years and probably how I met most women I dated. They had and still have their highs and lows. Apps don't magically solve dating.
I think the real problem is the tunnel vision. You get sucked down the rabbit hole. Instead, spending time out with friends, exploring hobbies, and joining common-interest clubs are some of the ways that I was able to meet women when I least cared to meet them.
And that's the real magic - I've always had the best relationships grow from the most chance encounters, in-person. Something that blossoms organically somehow. The apps can't really recreate that moment and subsequent sequence of good events.
I've also started balding since I was 20 and it puts that much more pressure on me to find someone through these apps. It's so unhealthy but I don't know what to do anymore. Male pattern baldness is a horrible disease especially since it is genetic and not something that can necessarily be stopped, just slowed down by medications that aren't even effective for me, lol. I hate to think like this but it makes me mad that there are unhealthy and overweight individuals out there with great genetics and I'm just sitting here losing my hair at an unfair age even though I'm very health-conscious and fit.
I know for a fact I will have no luck with dating apps if I shave my head and go bald in my early 20s and I might as well give up now. At least when I know that when I go bald by 25 or 26, I can at least delete the apps and maybe I will feel relieved?(probably not)
Please don't give up in general, but please give up with apps. It's obviously doing your head in.
If you just read the comments in this thread, the general consensus is that they (apps) don't work for the majority or they don't work for HN'rs.
If you profiled the HN community, you'd probably won't be surprised we're (on average) not that good looking. We hack too much code, we're generally overweight (well there are some here that are REALLY into fitness), some have crazy or no hair, some have way too big ears, or even too many heads (zaphod beeblebrox).
But a lot of us have SO's. wtf? How can that be?
Think about this. Everyone on TV is so bloody good looking with shiny teeth and great hair. How can we (HN'rs) compete with that?
Answer: A lot of people out there are boring as fuck and don't know anything of the world. They talk about sports, how crap their job is, the problems with their front lawn and about owning the other political party. That's it. Yawn.
We're reading about some cool nuclear reactor type or how to bake bread, or reading about some benedictine monk seeing strange lightning.
We generally still love to learn about cool stuff and can generally have a good conversation with above average IQ people. We can see the funny side of life and often are quite funny (which is very attractive to potentials).
TLDR: Don't knock yourself down too much. We all have strange things going on and still get by. There's lots of good looking people that are SUPER dull.
One could say we might even have an advantage! ;-)
It sounds like you, and your mindset, are your own worst enemy right now.
[0] https://imagecdn.handitv.com/KDqbG-1644609552-816-blog-picar...
Inevitably when I ask them about their height filters they look at me like I'm dumb and say "oh, only 5' 11" or above, duh".
My wife, who is 5' 2" told me she did the same thing and would have never met me online (I'm 5' 9" in tall boots).
Wondering how it can be enforced from business model point of view.
That really seems like quite a lot to me...
I'm sure some men are creeps, but if you don't want people to speak to you in real life, then apps are your only option.
I would also argue that you can work on your attractiveness but this can also easily take a toll on you and while working out and eating healthy are rather accessible for most people, making a lot of money or changing further features of themselves might not be. I have multiple friends who suffer from androgenic alopecia in their 30s or who have facial features which deviate so far from the norm that the only way to actually "fix" them would be to have plastic surgery.
Sometimes I wonder if the smart move would be to actually move somewhere where the societal norms around this are different.
I met my wife at a running club. Of my friend group, most met while active in sports or other activities. A few were introduced by common friends on a "you might like so-and-so" basis. And a few met in college. I'm only aware of two couples in my extended friend group who met using dating apps - and both of those were premium subscription models, not freebie Tinder-like apps.
Dating apps strike me as a very low-quality (low fidelity?) way to match couples.
It's true, but a lot of people don't have the opportunity or patience for those other approaches. If they're not just homebody introverts in the first place, they may already have a pretty saturated schedule/network without many suitable people around to pair off with. This happens to a lot of people as college recedes and life establishes a professional, mid-life rhythm.
Dating apps are garbage, but alternatives aren't always practical.
Then they really don't have the time for a relationship. Maybe they just want a hook-up, but that also takes time to connect with people and build relationships for something casual. It's all just work, at the end of the day, and a lot of people are unsatisfied with that answer. Things like being on the high-end of attractiveness are like cheat codes, but those people still have to put in effort to connect with people before they get to the fun part.
You can take it a step further, if you stay in a surf hostel, you'll meet other people that like surfing. Replace surfing with any other activity you like (or want to learn). I think this works well, because you meet people that you have something in common with and have a similar lifestyle.
Same, same.
Been on and off dating apps for about 6-7 years now. Trying a new one like every quarter or so, quitting it after 6 months, frustrated by the whole experience. Giving it a new try at the beginning of each year, because "new year, new chances" or something like that.
I know that as an obese person I do not work well with what most people are looking for, but the "no answer at all"-cases are still hurting. Rejections are "fine" (kind of), but no answer at all really fucks my brain up, even after all those years.
Online dating is strange. There are fast-paced online dynamics, combined with our hormones, deeply-rooted human wishes, gamification elements and "pay2win"-stuff. Things that should not be thrown together are totally thrown together and we never learned how to handle that. At least I didn't.
I don't have a suggestion for this problem as some men tend to be really dedicated spamming the shit out of every female but my point is this is really nothing against you and you shouldn't be taking this personally at all.
Yes, probably, though this is obviously not that easy and you start thinking whether you are the problem or not.
I'd focus on losing weight first if I were you.
Not wanting to be offensive, but I do understand where people are coming from. I myself am more in a niche, though it is physically less visible, and I also understand where you are coming from. I do believe it might be good to find a fitting partner, so not sure why the "most people" qualifier is there. What I am trying to get at :) If you are obese, how is your success rate with obese women? If out of 100 sent messages 1 good conversation comes, it is still something.
This sculpture is a tangible reflection of my mindset: https://mymodernmet.com/alexander-milov-love-sculpture/
My parents were involved in stuff like the National Organization for Women (NOW) while women's rights around abortion and equal pay etc were being attacked under the Reagan administration in the 80s. So I grew up having strong feminist role models all around me. I was taught to treat everyone as an equal, and to speak respectfully. Using terms like police officer instead of policeman, fire fighter instead of fireman, and so on. Think how quaint that sounds today!
I'm appalled that pretty much all of that seems to have died since the 90s. Grown women on reality TV call themselves girls. Traditional gender roles seem to be cemented in place by marketing. I see the most chauvinistic, repulsive men being rewarded for being an "alpha".
So I dunno, to me it feels like it's over. I don't see a way back to progress when half the population subscribes to gender stereotypes. I feel like I was prepared for an egalitarian world that never came to be.
And not just feminism. All of the social justice causes I'm most passionate about, beginning with the destruction of wealth inequality, seem to have fallen by the wayside. It's just all bad news all the time on every front. Maybe there's a silver lining there that it's all fake. Maybe we can shift out of this false reality and manifest a better one. That thought is about all that's keeping me going anymore.
For those people I recommend hitting the gym, getting a tan and optionally bleaching your teeth. This alone will bump up your attraction level a lot + you will feel healthier.
the medium is the message here. you scroll to find a new set of pans, and a new partner.
not sustainable or humane.
We had been at the same party, we exchanged looks but nothing happened. Only a week or so later I checked a profile on some app with the most stupid intro ever 'i think I know you, have we seen?' and bam nearly 6 years later we are still together.
Friction burn from too much shagging is real?
The problem seems to stem from an imbalance of the sexes. Men have found it a soul-crushing experience. Women get an abundance of matches, whilst men rarely get any. There are a few men that get an overwhelming majority of matches, the rest get nothing. It's winner-takes-all as far as the men go. Even that seems to be narrowing. Attractive men who would have gotten dates easily in the past find it increasingly difficult.
This would seem great for the ladies, but they seem to face the paradox of choice. With so many good prospects to choose from they have difficulty deciding which one to go for. The result is that all choices seem mediocre. There is a YT vid out there where a US-based Asian male model went onto a dating app. He described the process as brutal. And this is from a good-looking man. His major crime was to be an ethnic.
This seems to feed a further decline. The men try to strike up conversations, only to receive one-word answers from the women. The women put in zero effort because, hey, why would they, there is a plethora of suitors to choose from. Except that that's not how meaningful relationships work. There has to be effort from both parties.
This leads to men putting in less effort as they realise the futility of the exercise. The women complain that men aren't making any effort, and demurring on things like taking women to dinner and paying for it. After all, why would a man do this when the payoff isn't likely to be worth it?
And that's why dating apps are such a sh*tshow.
It might be worth thinking about this the opposite way.
Would you want to go out with someone who is so boring that all they do is sit around watching TV and swiping on dating apps?
A lot of comments here (it's a numbers game, pay for premium, other "tricks"), is IMHO trying to shortcut/hack the system and is unlikely to get anywhere (or extremely hard). You want to rethink what everyone thinks is the "modern" way to date and do what's worked for 1000's of years.
Interesting people with a wide range of interests and passions will not have problems. They will also have a network of like minding people and most likely don't use dating apps. It's worth trying to get into those circles.
Here's some tips:
- Stop using apps, you're being lazy/boring and unattractive to a partner. Put in the work.
- Most importantly stop looking to date. People can tell you're desperate and it's extremely unattractive. Stop asking everyone you see with a pulse out for coffee or drinks. Be friendly and someone who's approachable to have an interesting conversation with, without worrying about the risk of being hit upon. I think women really take notice when people do NOT hit on them and just 'nice'.
- Work is off limits. If there are social events be friendly/charming, but never hit on. If they have friends they will introduce you as a 'nice guy'. If you're creepy you'll never get into their circle.
- Make yourself more interesting (as other have suggested). Join sport teams, tech meetups, volunteer to help FOOs. Go to art galleries, small music events etc. Do NOT go here to date. Go to be a a more interesting person. If you see a cute person nearby, say something witty or ask their opinion about a painting your both looking at, a sculpture, the bands latest album etc.. (briefly, then disengage, SUPER important). Do not go full throttle and ask them out for coffee/drinks. The idea is to make yourself more comfortable talking to potentials and seem interesting w/o being creepy. It's a skill you have to develop. You can do this everywhere, at grocery stores, bars, museums. Interaction should not be more than 30 secs (no really). This prevents the creepy aspect. Again, you're trying to come across as non creepy and just want their opinion on the best salsa for tacos and move along.
- Increase your network of friends in the circles you want. If you friends just smoke weed and play video games that's not ideal. If you're friends play tennis, go to museums, music... great. If not find how you can get into them.
Some base tips (that you should be doing that you might not think is important, but helps with the above). This is obvious stuff, but somehow people have forgotten the the basics.
- Shower and wear clean clothes when you go out for an event. Maybe I have a better sense of smell, but the amount of bad smells I get from people is ridiculous.
- Shave. Most beards and hair fluff just looks silly and scruffy. If you face doesn't look kissable, it just makes everything else harder. If there's a group of men, you'll stand out with a clean face. Note: this is a great way to talk to people in bars. Go up to a group of the opposite sex. (becz they will feel comfortable and less intimidating) and say "My male friends all tell me that women prefer beards. I'm looking to date again and since I'm not going to hit on any of you, it would be really valuable to get some honest feedback from some good looking women." Important "DO NOT HIT ON THEM", be genuine and charming. After they provide feedback, thank them and walk away. Most likely they won't approach you as they are in a group and just want to chat with each other, but if they do, they will be able to find you.
- Do NOT wear after-shave. Really it makes people gag and want to run away.
- Go to the gym, run, get some dumbbells, long walks, whatever. Everyone could lose 10 pounds and it WILL make you feel more confident.
- Don't be a scruffy dresser. No need to go overboard, but you can go far with a nice shirt, clean jeans and SHOES (not fancy, but with black socks). Women seems to notice shoes. All this WILL make you stand out in a group in a "care's about their appearance but not a fop.
- Don't have bad breath. Yeah, it's ridiculous for it to be said.
- Don't smoke/vape. I know people will have strong opinions, but it REALLY makes your breath smell. I can't even be around people of the same sex who do this. YMMV.
